Why do you disagree with universal free health care?

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Why do you disagree with universal free health care?

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shankarsingam
Forum Elder

Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 1145

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject:

fellfire wrote:

shankarsingam wrote:

fellfire wrote:

shankarsingam wrote:

Heres out it works fellfire.
Uninsured people go to hospitals and dont or cant pay for services, the hospital cant afford this but have to treat them, in turn they charge higher rates to insurance companies(whom they are getting money from) to compensate for this loss. The insurance companies in turn raise our rates.

Look at universal healthcare as you paying for your own healthcare. Imagine not having to pull out a wallet everytime you get sick or break a leg.

So you and JJ are saying:

a) Universal healthcare will mean no more healthcare insurance business because it will be controlled/paid for by the government, and

b) my costs for healthcare will drop because now the government is paying for everyone and the hospitals don't have to raise the rates to the government which doesn't have to pass those increases along to me.

Have I got it right here?

a)no. You will still have HMOs and PPOs to choose from if you want, but now you have a choice. If you want to go through your healthcare provider to fix your broken leg, you can(in turn you may have to pay a higher premium as well as mountains of paperwork) or you can go through the gov. with just a valid SS card or proof of citizenship.

b)Not sure how much the gov will tax everyone,but it will be enough for the hospitals not to have to operate at a loss or deny aid because of lack of coverage.

Remember when people became doctors in order to help sick people? Today people become doctors to be rich.

You believe that the government can provide universal healthcare at a price that is equal to what I am paying with my "choice of HMO and PPO" and such businesses will still remain viable? You are not serious, are you? That is such an absolutely stupid proposition. Who would pay for good healthcare if they were already paying for it through taxes?

If HMOs and PPOs still exist with universal healthcare provided by the government, it is for one reason only, the government healthcare sucks (either in price or service). That's the way the market works.

So I still don't see where I am saving anything with Universal healthcare - I am still paying for my healthcare and now I am paying for Joe Blows healthcare too and I am paying for me and Jane Doe to have a choice not to use my good healthcare and, instead, use the sucky government healthcare.

C'mon, speak the truth! You know as well as I that the purpose of Universal healthcare is a social purpose and it offers no market benefit. Once we get past this idiocy that it will save money on premiums we can discuss the social need for it.

Why do you doubt the free market system? Why would you think that because the government has a program for everybody to use, that private markets will go out of business? If that was true, we wouldnt have FedEx or DHL. Does the US postal service suck? Yes. Do people still use it? Yes. Why do people still use USPS? Why do people still use a socialized postal service including yourself im sure?

fellfire
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 2021
Location: Washington DC

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject:

shankarsingam wrote:

How about because you can't mail a first class letter through FedEx and DHL? it is illegal. All I get from USPS is junk mail and christmas cards. If FedEx could offer first class mail service, it would run the Post office out of business.

The Postal Service is certainly NOT the free market and if we could get rid of it we should, it would save taxpayers a whole lot of money. SO you are now suggesting that Universal Healthcare would amount to a "Post Office" equivalent for Medical Treatment? And this is something you support?!?!

shankarsingam
Forum Elder

Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 1145

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject:

fellfire wrote:

shankarsingam wrote:

First class mail service?!! hahaha!
Dude its possible for you to mail anything you want using FedEx or DHL and get it there in a shorter or longer amount of time than the post office if you PAY for it.
And yes, im comparing gov programs and the free market, so yes healthcare is comparable to the mail as is any other government program such as education or transportation that has a free market counter part.

I mean honestly, in regards to transportation in comparison to universal healthcare,do you beleive that you are paying a taxes (NTSB) so other people can use the streets and highways? As in your argument that you are paying taxes for someone elses healthcare?

cornopean
Forum Elder

Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3576

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:48 pm Post subject:

I was reading today about mandates. Here is one op-ed piece I read;

"Because state legislators want to retain the ability to force insurance companies to foot the bill and cover expensive benefits which they don’t have the guts to sock directly to taxpayers. These are called “mandates” - as in, the legislature makes it mandatory that the insurance company cover them or the insurance company doesn’t get to operate in Nevada. Yes, legal extortion.

Around the country, many states force insurance companies to cover benefits ranging from acupuncture to marriage counseling; from contraceptives to hearing aids to hairpieces; from podiatry to osteopathy; from chiropractors to even massage therapy. All in all, there are over 1,800 such mandates found across the country. And these mandates jack up the cost of insurance, creating a huge difference in premium costs between some states."

Well if the above is true......then isn't it obvious that prices are going to rise? but the fault isn't with the insurance company....it's with the govt which thinks it can force private companies to do what THEY think is advantageous. why can't consumers decide what they want covered? why these stupid mandates?

fellfire
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 2021
Location: Washington DC

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject:

shankarsingam wrote:

fellfire wrote:

shankarsingam wrote:

"Dude" try putting postage on a letter and giving it to FedEx. Yes, you can put a letter in a FedEx package and ship it, but you can't fuckin' "mail" anything via FedEx. The Post Office has a legal monopoly on "mailing" in this country. FedEx can ship packages. GO do some reading. Why do you think companies have stamp machines and such, so they can "mail" something.

shankarsingam wrote:

And yes, im comparing gov programs and the free market, so yes healthcare is comparable to the mail as is any other government program such as education or transportation that has a free market counter part.

I mean honestly, in regards to transportation in comparison to universal healthcare,do you beleive that you are paying a taxes (NTSB) so other people can use the streets and highways? As in your argument that you are paying taxes for someone elses healthcare?

You need to straighten out your analogies, buddy. NTSB is a regulatory body and we already have government regulatory bodies in the healthcare industry - FDA for instance. My taxes currently go to the state for roads and highways ... the state controls transportation issues with grants from the Feds (Dept of Transportation). Why don't you know all this? what country do you live in?

You are talking about a service along the lines of either the Post Office (if its a direct service, i.e. government clinics) or Social Security Admin (if its a reimbursement deal for private medical professionals). In either case, you are talking about adding a honkin' big government agency to handle universal healthcare and the associated tax increase for one purpose - to provide other people with healthcare.

shankarsingam
Forum Elder

Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 1145

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:50 pm Post subject:

fellfire wrote:

shankarsingam wrote:

fellfire wrote:

shankarsingam wrote:

You re a buffoon. How old are you? Have you heard of FedEx Letter? DHL and UPS(and WorldWide Express) have a similar service as well. As i said, you can mail anything you want using private companies.

Thank god for government postal service keeping postal rates low else we would be paying an arm and a leg to post our mail through private companies.

Your taxes do go to the NTSB for transportational reasons, but okay, answer the question,do you pay taxes(gas, state)just so other people can use streets and highways? No you are paying for yourself to use these services, can you agree with this?
Yes you are paying taxes to a big honking government agency to provide other people,INCLUDING YOU, with decent healthcare.

You are paying taxes to a big honkin government agency to provide other people,INCLUDING YOU, with decent roads.

You are paying taxes to a big honkin government agency to provide other people,INCLUDING YOU, with decent education.

Note i used the word 'decent'. Not the word 'substandard', not the word 'excellent'.

Would you be happy if our roads would all be privatized and americans paid a toll every mile of highway cuz hey! companies need to make a profit too!
Is that what you would like to see?

cornopean
Forum Elder

Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3576

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:36 pm Post subject:

Hey folk........check out this dude. Name is Lysander Spooner and he tried to start a company to compete with the P.O.

"Spooner founded the American Letter Mail Company to contest the United States Post Office's monopoly."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysander_Spooner

Now I agree that the post office is constitutional. what is unconstitutional is the govt forcing other companies out of the letter delivery business. why can't we have competition to the Post Office?

exton
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:11 am Post subject:

cornopean wrote:

Now I agree that the post office is constitutional. what is unconstitutional is the govt forcing other companies out of the letter delivery business.

The methods the government uses to "force" such things are, to my understanding, not altogether different from the anticompetative behavior of any other company.

Quote:

why can't we have competition to the Post Office?

We do. Ever hear of a courier service?

And, of course, there's email. That's dealt the postal office a serious blow in recent decades.

cornopean
Forum Elder

Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3576

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:57 am Post subject:

exton wrote:

cornopean wrote:

Now I agree that the post office is constitutional. what is unconstitutional is the govt forcing other companies out of the letter delivery business.

The methods the government uses to "force" such things are, to my understanding, not altogether different from the anticompetative behavior of any other company.

the anti-competitive activity of other companies makes us all better off. as when they try to lower their prices or make a more quality product. (the exception is when companies lobby the govt to make polices that limit their competition) again govt is the problem not the solution.

Quote:

why can't we have competition to the Post Office?

We do. Ever hear of a courier service?

And, of course, there's email. That's dealt the postal office a serious blow in recent decades.

nice try. you know what I mean. why can't Lysander Spooner types start businesses delivering mail? there is one reason.......cuz the govt forces a monopoly on the american public.

joeyjock
Forum Elder

Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 2113
Location: Fort Lauderdale

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:30 pm Post subject:

The free market system does not work with essential services such as healthcare....
and America will for all time immemorial be a fotenote in history as to why

cornopean
Forum Elder

Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3576

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:28 pm Post subject:

joeyjock wrote:

The free market system does not work with essential services such as healthcare....
and America will for all time immemorial be a fotenote in history as to why

is food essential? electricity?

imagine if government tried to supply food as a universally available "right."

"To satisfy this right, government would raise taxes to meet all anticipated food needs. Store shelves across the land would then be stocked. Citizens would have the right to enter these storehouses to get "free" food.

Does anyone believe that such a system would effectively supply food? It's clear that with free access to food, too many people would take too much food, leaving many others with no food at all. Government would soon realize that food storehouses are emptying faster than expected. In response, it might hike taxes even higher to produce more food - raising the price that society pays for nutrition.

Stocking stores with more food, though, won't solve the problem. With food free at the point of delivery, consumers would take all that they can carry. People would quickly learn that if they don't grab as much food as possible today, the store might run out of the foods that their families need tomorrow. This creates a vicious cycle of moral hazard that unwittingly pits neighbor against neighbor.

Eventually, to avoid spending impossibly large chunks of society's resources producing food, government would start restricting access to it. Bureaucrats would enforce rations, such as "two gallons of milk per family per week." There might be exceptions for those with special needs, but most of us would be allowed to take only those foods that officials decide we need.

Food would be a universal entitlement in name only. In practice, it would be strictly limited by government rules.

Of course, by keeping what food it does supply "free," government might ensure that at least basic foodstuffs are available to everyone as a right. And maybe this is the sort of outcome that universal healthcare advocates have in mind: Only essential care is a right to be enjoyed by everyone free of charge."

the rest is here...
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/.....-coop.html

joeyjock
Forum Elder

Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 2113
Location: Fort Lauderdale

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject:

Ahem.....
you can go without having a chicken pot pie on thursday but when you have an aneurysm that needs tending to you can't wait until Friday
sorry that arguement doesn't wash my man

Lester
Forum Elder

Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:02 pm Post subject:

joeyjock wrote:

Ahem.....
you can go without having a chicken pot pie on thursday but when you have an aneurysm that needs tending to you can't wait until Friday
sorry that arguement doesn't wash my man

Stuff like that they don't have the waiting for.

shankarsingam
Forum Elder

Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 1145

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject:

cornopean wrote:

Thank you for that 200 year old example. Way to wiki!
BTW Spooner did legally make profits through Am Letter Mail CO. The prob was he was using USPS routes to deliver. So like any other company today, USPS sued the pants off Spooner and he went broke b4 he died.

shankarsingam
Forum Elder

Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 1145

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject:

Mark my words, corporations have their eyes on another resource essential for human survival....water.

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