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fellfire
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Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 2021
Location: Washington DC
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 Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| joeyjock wrote: | The U.S. Census Bureau has reported that the number of uninsured Americans rose by 1.4 million to 15.6 percent, or 45 million, in 2003, up from 15.2 percent in 2002, the third straight annual increase. Meanwhile, the nation’s poverty rate also climbed to 12.5 percent last year, from 12.1 percent in 2002.
...and you DON'T think you're paying for these people in your premiums???
and bears don't sh**t in the woods and Bush isn't an idiot? |
Okay, maybe I'm being infected by Corny here and getting dense, but if these people are uninsured then insurance companies are not disbursing any money for them. If the insurance companies are not disbursing any money for them, then why would you expect their uninsured status to affect my insurance premiums?
Last I heard, insurance companies had to pay money into governmental coffers as last-chance insurance funds based on how many policies they write, not on how many people are not insured. Again, that's not affecting my premiums.
Do you care to explain yourself? |
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cornopean
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3576
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| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| joeyjock wrote: | | The U.S. Census Bureau has reported that the number of uninsured Americans rose by 1.4 million to 15.6 percent, or 45 million, in 2003, up from 15.2 percent in 2002, the third straight annual increase. |
ok...so what? this indicates to me that the cost of health insurance is very high. so how do we decrease the cost of insurance? well we need to deregulate the system and allow the free market to lower prices and increase quality. there is NO OTHER way to lower prices. well there are other ways but they all have disasterous tradeoffs. |
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joeyjock
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Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 2113
Location: Fort Lauderdale
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| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Psst...one of the reasons the cost of insurance is very high is ...
because there are alot of uninsured people
If there is Universal insurance that price raising pressure is gone
ie: Canada ie: Europe |
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fellfire
Forum Elder
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 2021
Location: Washington DC
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| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| joeyjock wrote: | Psst...one of the reasons the cost of insurance is very high is ...
because there are alot of uninsured people |
How does that work? Sure, if you have a small population of insured then the money each of those members has to spend is a larger share. But you are talking about 15% of the population as uninsured. So you are saying that you expect that if they were all insured, premiums would drop by 15%?
That is rather simplistic view. Also, these uninsured cannot afford insurance on their own, so if they are to get insurance it means that I AM GOING TO PAY FOR THEM TO BE INSURED, in other words, my premiums go down by 15% but my costs, through taxes goes up by as much and what I get is government regulated insurance.
In fact, to be correct, my premiums don't go down at all, because these uninsured are not in my insurance group, they are in a government group and thus they don't exert direct influence on my premiums ... yet I am paying for the government to insure them.
| joeyjock wrote: | If there is Universal insurance that price raising pressure is gone
ie: Canada ie: Europe |
Only if we had one insurer and we were all in that insurers pool. |
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shankarsingam
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Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 1145
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| fellfire wrote: | | joeyjock wrote: | Psst...one of the reasons the cost of insurance is very high is ...
because there are alot of uninsured people |
How does that work? Sure, if you have a small population of insured then the money each of those members has to spend is a larger share. But you are talking about 15% of the population as uninsured. So you are saying that you expect that if they were all insured, premiums would drop by 15%?
That is rather simplistic view. Also, these uninsured cannot afford insurance on their own, so if they are to get insurance it means that I AM GOING TO PAY FOR THEM TO BE INSURED, in other words, my premiums go down by 15% but my costs, through taxes goes up by as much and what I get is government regulated insurance.
In fact, to be correct, my premiums don't go down at all, because these uninsured are not in my insurance group, they are in a government group and thus they don't exert direct influence on my premiums ... yet I am paying for the government to insure them.
| joeyjock wrote: | If there is Universal insurance that price raising pressure is gone
ie: Canada ie: Europe |
Only if we had one insurer and we were all in that insurers pool. |
Heres out it works fellfire.
Uninsured people go to hospitals and dont or cant pay for services, the hospital cant afford this but have to treat them, in turn they charge higher rates to insurance companies(whom they are getting money from) to compensate for this loss. The insurance companies in turn raise our rates.
Look at universal healthcare as you paying for your own healthcare. Imagine not having to pull out a wallet everytime you get sick or break a leg. |
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fellfire
Forum Elder
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 2021
Location: Washington DC
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| shankarsingam wrote: | | fellfire wrote: | | joeyjock wrote: | Psst...one of the reasons the cost of insurance is very high is ...
because there are alot of uninsured people |
How does that work? Sure, if you have a small population of insured then the money each of those members has to spend is a larger share. But you are talking about 15% of the population as uninsured. So you are saying that you expect that if they were all insured, premiums would drop by 15%?
That is rather simplistic view. Also, these uninsured cannot afford insurance on their own, so if they are to get insurance it means that I AM GOING TO PAY FOR THEM TO BE INSURED, in other words, my premiums go down by 15% but my costs, through taxes goes up by as much and what I get is government regulated insurance.
In fact, to be correct, my premiums don't go down at all, because these uninsured are not in my insurance group, they are in a government group and thus they don't exert direct influence on my premiums ... yet I am paying for the government to insure them.
| joeyjock wrote: | If there is Universal insurance that price raising pressure is gone
ie: Canada ie: Europe |
Only if we had one insurer and we were all in that insurers pool. |
Heres out it works fellfire.
Uninsured people go to hospitals and dont or cant pay for services, the hospital cant afford this but have to treat them, in turn they charge higher rates to insurance companies(whom they are getting money from) to compensate for this loss. The insurance companies in turn raise our rates.
Look at universal healthcare as you paying for your own healthcare. Imagine not having to pull out a wallet everytime you get sick or break a leg. |
So you and JJ are saying:
a) Universal healthcare will mean no more healthcare insurance business because it will be controlled/paid for by the government, and
b) my costs for healthcare will drop because now the government is paying for everyone and the hospitals don't have to raise the rates to the government which doesn't have to pass those increases along to me.
Have I got it right here? |
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shankarsingam
Forum Elder
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 1145
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| fellfire wrote: | | shankarsingam wrote: | | fellfire wrote: | | joeyjock wrote: | Psst...one of the reasons the cost of insurance is very high is ...
because there are alot of uninsured people |
How does that work? Sure, if you have a small population of insured then the money each of those members has to spend is a larger share. But you are talking about 15% of the population as uninsured. So you are saying that you expect that if they were all insured, premiums would drop by 15%?
That is rather simplistic view. Also, these uninsured cannot afford insurance on their own, so if they are to get insurance it means that I AM GOING TO PAY FOR THEM TO BE INSURED, in other words, my premiums go down by 15% but my costs, through taxes goes up by as much and what I get is government regulated insurance.
In fact, to be correct, my premiums don't go down at all, because these uninsured are not in my insurance group, they are in a government group and thus they don't exert direct influence on my premiums ... yet I am paying for the government to insure them.
| joeyjock wrote: | If there is Universal insurance that price raising pressure is gone
ie: Canada ie: Europe |
Only if we had one insurer and we were all in that insurers pool. |
Heres out it works fellfire.
Uninsured people go to hospitals and dont or cant pay for services, the hospital cant afford this but have to treat them, in turn they charge higher rates to insurance companies(whom they are getting money from) to compensate for this loss. The insurance companies in turn raise our rates.
Look at universal healthcare as you paying for your own healthcare. Imagine not having to pull out a wallet everytime you get sick or break a leg. |
So you and JJ are saying:
a) Universal healthcare will mean no more healthcare insurance business because it will be controlled/paid for by the government, and
b) my costs for healthcare will drop because now the government is paying for everyone and the hospitals don't have to raise the rates to the government which doesn't have to pass those increases along to me.
Have I got it right here? |
a)no. You will still have HMOs and PPOs to choose from if you want, but now you have a choice. If you want to go through your healthcare provider to fix your broken leg, you can(in turn you may have to pay a higher premium as well as mountains of paperwork) or you can go through the gov. with just a valid SS card or proof of citizenship.
b)Not sure how much the gov will tax everyone,but it will be enough for the hospitals not to have to operate at a loss or deny aid because of lack of coverage.
Remember when people became doctors in order to help sick people? Today people become doctors to be rich. |
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joeyjock
Forum Elder
Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 2113
Location: Fort Lauderdale
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Mmmm...that's no so true anymore Shank |
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Lester
Forum Elder
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| cornopean wrote: | | Lester wrote: | | Their taxes aren't doubled, and *a* healthcare system is better than no healthcare system, which is what those without insurance have. |
people w/o health insurance have no healthcare system?!? mercy....what did people do before insurance? |
Died, actually, only very few people could afford doctors and even if they could medicine wasn't all too great.
Those people who can't afford insurance are the same people who can't afford to pay for treatment. |
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fellfire
Forum Elder
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 2021
Location: Washington DC
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| shankarsingam wrote: | | fellfire wrote: | | shankarsingam wrote: | Heres out it works fellfire.
Uninsured people go to hospitals and dont or cant pay for services, the hospital cant afford this but have to treat them, in turn they charge higher rates to insurance companies(whom they are getting money from) to compensate for this loss. The insurance companies in turn raise our rates.
Look at universal healthcare as you paying for your own healthcare. Imagine not having to pull out a wallet everytime you get sick or break a leg. |
So you and JJ are saying:
a) Universal healthcare will mean no more healthcare insurance business because it will be controlled/paid for by the government, and
b) my costs for healthcare will drop because now the government is paying for everyone and the hospitals don't have to raise the rates to the government which doesn't have to pass those increases along to me.
Have I got it right here? |
a)no. You will still have HMOs and PPOs to choose from if you want, but now you have a choice. If you want to go through your healthcare provider to fix your broken leg, you can(in turn you may have to pay a higher premium as well as mountains of paperwork) or you can go through the gov. with just a valid SS card or proof of citizenship.
b)Not sure how much the gov will tax everyone,but it will be enough for the hospitals not to have to operate at a loss or deny aid because of lack of coverage.
Remember when people became doctors in order to help sick people? Today people become doctors to be rich. |
You believe that the government can provide universal healthcare at a price that is equal to what I am paying with my "choice of HMO and PPO" and such businesses will still remain viable? You are not serious, are you? That is such an absolutely stupid proposition. Who would pay for good healthcare if they were already paying for it through taxes?
If HMOs and PPOs still exist with universal healthcare provided by the government, it is for one reason only, the government healthcare sucks (either in price or service). That's the way the market works.
So I still don't see where I am saving anything with Universal healthcare - I am still paying for my healthcare and now I am paying for Joe Blows healthcare too and I am paying for me and Jane Doe to have a choice not to use my good healthcare and, instead, use the sucky government healthcare.
C'mon, speak the truth! You know as well as I that the purpose of Universal healthcare is a social purpose and it offers no market benefit. Once we get past this idiocy that it will save money on premiums we can discuss the social need for it. |
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exton
Forum Elder
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| fellfire wrote: |
Last I heard, insurance companies had to pay money into governmental coffers as last-chance insurance funds based on how many policies they write, not on how many people are not insured. Again, that's not affecting my premiums.
Do you care to explain yourself? |
I think he's getting two different things confused.
The fact that people can't afford medicine drives up the cost of healthcare in general. I think they're confusing the cost of medicine, and the cost of insurance to pay for medicine. |
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fellfire
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Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 2021
Location: Washington DC
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| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed.
I've been debating their apparent conclusion that the overall cost of healthcare would go down with universal healthcare.
If cost is the primary argument for Universal healthcare, IMO its dead on arrival. But I don't think cost is the primary argument. I think there may be some cost benefits, but overall, I think that providing high quality healthcare to all citizens is an expensive proposition. |
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shankarsingam
Forum Elder
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 1145
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| fellfire wrote: | Agreed.
I've been debating their apparent conclusion that the overall cost of healthcare would go down with universal healthcare.
If cost is the primary argument for Universal healthcare, IMO its dead on arrival. But I don't think cost is the primary argument. I think there may be some cost benefits, but overall, I think that providing high quality healthcare to all citizens is an expensive proposition. |
Socialized healthcare provides for the basic health and well being of individuals. Otherwise its sick individuals unable to recover from the flu because they cant afford basic healthcare?
Health insurance companies wont offer coverage to sick people with pre-existing conditions? What do we do we these people, just toss em aside cuz fellfire doesnt want to pay for someone else's health? Beleive it or not Joe-blow also pays into a health system and its his right to use it. |
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shankarsingam
Forum Elder
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 1145
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| joeyjock wrote: | | Mmmm...that's no so true anymore Shank |
Not sure whats no so true?
Uninsured patients driving up the cost of premiums? |
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shankarsingam
Forum Elder
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 1145
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| fellfire wrote: | Agreed.
If cost is the primary argument for Universal healthcare, IMO its dead on arrival. But I don't think cost is the primary argument. I think there may be some cost benefits, but overall, I think that providing high quality healthcare to all citizens is an expensive proposition. |
For me,cost is not the primary argument for universal healthcare, its compassion for fellow man and a sense of national pride. |
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