Where is god?

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emceeMC
Not a Newbie

Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 64

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:06 pm Post subject:

Quote:

You mean like the missionaries that show up with a sack of grain in one hand and a bible in the other?

No, I mean the ones that "raise millions for disaster relief and food for the hungry? That have counciled millions of depressed and destitute through the years. Who have given hope to literally billions of people."

Wow, a lot of Deja vu in this forum.

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"church youth counselor who couldn't quite hack it as a gym teacher and decided to go into christian church counseling, where he could be around his true passion"(Tender young ass) You mean those counselors? Caus, every town has at least one.

Would you like to cite your source for that?

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You mean like the missionaries that show up with a sack of grain in one hand and a bible in the other? And you can't have any food unless you convert and become a good little christian.

Again, would you like to cite your source for that?

Xerxes
Forum Elder

Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 1564
Location: 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject:

I get all of my info from "Satan Weekly" and the "Beelzebub Post" and Fox News.

emceeMC
Not a Newbie

Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 64

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject:

So I take it that you have no source for your ridiculous assertions. You simply babble about the bad religion has done, and yet offer no evidence of your specific claims. You didn't happen to be Jayson Blair's fact-checker, did you?

exton
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject:

emceeMC wrote:

Quote:

...so you believe it's not good for someone *not* to believe? Why?

I don't judge people who don't believe. I just don't like it when people launch into an attack on religion.

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What does that mean?

That there is some god-like figure in existence.

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There is no conservation of mass, just conservation of energy.

Law of Conservation of Matter: During an ordinary chemical change, there is no detectable increase or decrease in the quantity of matter.

Ummm...what you've said is simply untrue...

So...you think that the creation of the universe was an "ordinary chemical change"? Do you know what an ordinary chemical reaction is?

In reality, matter can be created and destroyed in general. It is not created and destroyed in an ordinary chemical reaction specifically, because that's the definition of an ordinary chemical reaction.

Look up electrong-positron reactions. And nuclear reactions. And quantum uncertainty and vacuum fluctuations (although it might not be immediately clear to you what those last two have to do with the creation/destruction of matter).

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Science cannot explain something that breaks the laws of science. Science cannot explain the origin of the matter in the universe because it breaks a law of science. So how is science going to explain the origin of matter in the universe again?

You should consider becoming a bit more learned on the subject.

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Honestly, you have to ask why people should help other people in life? Because it is the right thing to do, and as people we should all want what is best for our fellow humans.

But why? Why is it the right thing to do?

And you didn't respond to my last statement:

Everything contributes both good and bad to the world. Every action and event has both good and bad outcomes. Which makes the creation of good, in and of itself, irrelevent.

The real question is twofold: does it do more good than bad? And can the ends that it serves be met in a different way, so as to create more good and less bad?

(The answers, i think, are "maybe" and "yes", respectively)

emceeMC
Not a Newbie

Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 64

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject:

Quote:

In reality, matter can be created and destroyed in general. It is not created and destroyed in an ordinary chemical reaction specifically, because that's the definition of an ordinary chemical reaction.

If matter can be created out of thin air, then one would assume that something had to cause that to happen. Since you seem to be the expert, would you like to cite your source that says matter can be created out of nothing?

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But why? Why is it the right thing to do?

Why is helping people the right thing to do? Wow, I hope if I'm ever stranded on an island I you're not the rescue pilot, I might perish while you probe the philosophy behind the helping of others.

If a person needs help, they are probably in pain, physical, spiritual, emotional, whatever. If by helping people, you remove a little bit of their pain, and make them just a little bit more hopeful, you have done a good thing. Why? Because you have removed, even if just the tiniest bit, some pain from the world, and created some good.

Quote:

And you didn't respond to my last statement:

I apologize, responding to asinine questions like "Why is it good to help people?" can get dull after awhile.

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Which makes the creation of good, in and of itself, irrelevent.

You try to council a grieving person who has lost a friend. You work in a medical clinic in Kenya. You donate to the Salvation Army and to homeless shelters, all actions which can ease people's ache. Yea, reaallll irrelevant.

Quote:

The real question is twofold: does it do more good than bad? And can the ends that it serves be met in a different way, so as to create more good and less bad?

Yes, and no, respectively.

You see, 90% of people believe in God, or something like him. That means that more likely than not, humanitarian workers people who do good in the world draw their inspiration to help people from their religious belief that doing the right thing and helping people is good, since all of God's children and our spiritual brothers and sisters deserve help. If more people thought like you, that creating good was irrelevant, the world would be in sorrier shape than it is now.

Xerxes
Forum Elder

Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 1564
Location: 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:30 am Post subject:

emceeMC wrote:

Not that you really need to look too hard to find out that Christian charities are crooked. But I will help you out:
http://www.exposingchristianit.....arity.html

Or, maybe you mean these self-seving bastards:/b]
http://www.motherjones.com/new.....o_god.html

[b]Or:
http://www.christianaggression.....s_bush.php

Just remember, it is not the organizations themselves that provide the money. It is the unaware suckers that actually buy into all that religious dogma-crap and give the money to the charities. Or, as I like to call them, the middle men. After they ("The Middle Men") take a cut, they then give proceeds to whichever country they happen to be targeting at the time. Or, wherever they want to mine for diamonds.

emceeMC
Not a Newbie

Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 64

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:37 am Post subject:

Your first website proves one thing: the church gets a lot of money. In case it wasn't readily apparent, the upkeep of a multinational society with billions of members can get a little pricey.

Your next two websites prove another thing: 2 charities did something bad.

All you can offer are a handful of examples of major organizations being corrupt, while are blind to the thousands of church sponsored charity works in America and other places. Homeless shelters, soup kitchens, church run missionary trips, all contribute to good all over the world

exton
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:18 am Post subject:

emceeMC wrote:

If matter can be created out of thin air, then one would assume that something had to cause that to happen.

A: One would assume wrongly. Seriously, look up "vacuum energy".

B: The creation of the universe does not just involve the begining of matter and energy. It involves the bringing into existence of space and time themselves. Without space and time, things like causality cease to have meaning.

Quote:

Since you seem to be the expert, would you like to cite your source that says matter can be created out of nothing?

Vacuum. Energy.

On the very smallest scale imaginable, energy pops in and out of existence all the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy

Quote:

If a person needs help, they are probably in pain, physical, spiritual, emotional, whatever. If by helping people, you remove a little bit of their pain, and make them just a little bit more hopeful, you have done a good thing. Why? Because you have removed, even if just the tiniest bit, some pain from the world, and created some good.

So, the amount of good in the world is the same as the amount of happiness in the world?

Quote:

I apologize, responding to asinine questions like "Why is it good to help people?" can get dull after awhile.

You can always just say "that's a boring question that is of no consequence to the discussion at hand, so im not going to bother answering it."

Quote:

The real question is twofold: does it do more good than bad? And can the ends that it serves be met in a different way, so as to create more good and less bad?

The latter does not follow from the former.

It would be correct to say that, if 90% of the population holds religious beliefs, then 90% of people who do good are probably religious believers.

You cannot draw the conclusion that that 90% does good as a direct consequences of those beliefs, though. Not just from the fact that they hold those beliefs.

Quote:

If more people thought like you, that creating good was irrelevant, the world would be in sorrier shape than it is now.

I'll explain more fully so that you understand:

In terms of whether or not religion itself is good, the fact alone that religion can cause good is irrelevent. This is because ALL things cause both good and bad.

See? Not that hard.

And you didn't explain your answer to the second question.

That is, why do you believe that religion is the BEST way to get good things done? Why do you believe that there is no other way to do more good and less bad?

emceeMC
Not a Newbie

Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 64

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:47 am Post subject:

In looking up vacuum energy, I see it explains the spontaneous creation of energy, not matter, am I reading that wrong?

Quote:

So, the amount of good in the world is the same as the amount of happiness in the world?

I believe that a world with more pain and suffering is worse than one where people can live peacefully. If you can't see that, I can't continue in this ridiculous exchange.

Quote:

You can always just say "that's a boring question that is of no consequence to the discussion at hand, so im not going to bother answering it."

I'm sorry, but I will not continue into an argument about whether a world with more or less pain. The answer is obvious to anyone who has ever felt suffering.

Quote:

You cannot draw the conclusion that that 90% does good as a direct consequences of those beliefs, though. Not just from the fact that they hold those beliefs.

People hold the belief that there is significance in doing good in the world. This is the message of religion. I'm just thankful they don't think like you, or they wouldn't see the good that can come out of helping others.

Quote:

That is, why do you believe that religion is the BEST way to get good things done? Why do you believe that there is no other way to do more good and less bad?

Religion is the only constant throughout history that has generally held that doing good is important. Whatever belief you hold argues that doing good is irrelevant, and that is not good. Why is it not good? See my above answers. In my opinion, without that motivation that you are helping one of your spiritual brothers and sisters, and inordinate amount of people would turn out like you who think good is irrelevant.

thelast007
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 525

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:14 am Post subject:

i found him...well her. all you had to do was go on myspace. same place you can find almost anybody.

and i hate to be the one to say i told you so.

but yep. God's a woman. and yep. God's black too. Very Happy

http://profile.myspace.com/ind.....dID=378144

(Note to God:Please don't curse me for playing.)

Xerxes
Forum Elder

Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 1564
Location: 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:51 am Post subject:

emceeMC wrote:

Your next two websites prove another thing: 2 charities did something bad.

Just also remember that it is not always out of the kindness of the human heart that missionaries offer food and relief. There are always strings attached. As a matter of fact, I would even go as far as saying that some charities are actually CIA information gathering ventures as well. Bear in mind, this is an extreme example on the latter statement, the point I am trying to make is that whether the reasons are political, or for intelligence gathering in a given country or they just trying to spread that good ole' timey Jesus feelin' and save some Muslims from themselves, it is always at a price. And that cost is usually accepting Jeshua Cristos as your PERSONAL lord and savior. That is not to say that there are not westerners in the impoverished regions trying to do some good but end up fighting their own countries' beuracracies budgetary cuts to things like the Peace Corps and such. I trust no charities at all. They all take a cut! And that cut goes well above and beyond the administrative fees and payroll that the use to justify skimming off the top. A friend of mine is in fundraising and he makes a killing. Jerry Lewis makes a killing every Memorial Day. They accept debit card now.

exton wrote:

"Whenever cannibals are on the brink of starvation, Heaven, in its infinite mercy, sends them a fat missionary."
-Oscar Wilde

Thanks exton, I LOVE THAT QUOTE!!

exton
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:43 am Post subject:

emceeMC wrote:

In looking up vacuum energy, I see it explains the spontaneous creation of energy, not matter, am I reading that wrong?

No, you're reading it correctly.

It's just that there's no difference between matter and energy. Matter is a specific form of energy. That's one reason that there is no conservation of matter.

That's what e=mc^2 is all about. The energy in a certain amount of mass is equal to that mass multiplied by the square of the speed of light.

Quote:

So, the amount of good in the world is the same as the amount of happiness in the world?

I believe that a world with more pain and suffering is worse than one where people can live peacefully. If you can't see that, I can't continue in this ridiculous exchange.

Like i said - i don't agree or disagree. I'm just curious.

It's just that the idea that goodness is determined by happiness has some rather uncomfortable moral consequences, so people don't usually, actually believe that - they just use it as a quick and simple approximation.

Quote:

People hold the belief that there is significance in doing good in the world. This is the message of religion.

The only message of religion, as a whole, is that the supernatural exists and that it is of some consequence in human lives.

Many religions choose to concentrate on goodness, for pretty obvious reasons.

Doing good isn't really unique to religion, though. Almost all people wish to do good. They just don't always agree on what constitutes good.

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I'm just thankful they don't think like you, or they wouldn't see the good that can come out of helping others.

Where did i say that it wasn't good to help others?

Quote:

Religion is the only constant throughout history that has generally held that doing good is important.

People have always held that doing good is important. You will never find a person who thinks that it's important to do wrong.
People just don't agree on what's good. And some of them don't admit to what they believe is good.

(the only exception i can think of is sociopaths, who are a special case)

Quote:

Whatever belief you hold argues that doing good is irrelevant, and that is not good.

I actually qualified that statement TWICE. I'll do it again in case you weren't paying any attention:

If you want to determine whether or not religion is good, then the fact alone that religion does good is irrelevent. There are other equally important factors.

emceeMC
Not a Newbie

Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 64

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:19 am Post subject:

Quote:

Where did i say that it wasn't good to help others?

Why, right here.

Quote:

Everything contributes both good and bad to the world. Every action and event has both good and bad outcomes. Which makes the creation of good, in and of itself, irrelevent.

Quote:

If you want to determine whether or not religion is good, then the fact alone that religion does good is irrelevent. There are other equally important factors.

In response to your "qualified" statement, I'd say that no good is irrelevant. Even if bad consequences arise also, the good is not negated.

Quote:

It's just that there's no difference between matter and energy. Matter is a specific form of energy. That's one reason that there is no conservation of matter.

So then how is it that this energy converted into matter?

Furthermore, where is the background energy originating from?

Quote:

It's just that the idea that goodness is determined by happiness has some rather uncomfortable moral consequences, so people don't usually, actually believe that - they just use it as a quick and simple approximation.

Not necessarily happiness, but freedom from suffering. The author of this thread is the one that states his belief that the only reason we are here is too engage in hedonism.

Quote:

People have always held that doing good is important.

People have also, generally speaking, help that belief in God is important. In fact, as long as there has been morality, there has been religion. They are the two oldest concepts of the advanced human psyche (excluding the basic animal instincts such as survival).

exton
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:30 am Post subject:

emceeMC wrote:

Quote:

If you want to determine whether or not religion is good, then the fact alone that religion does good is irrelevent. There are other equally important factors.

In response to your "qualified" statement, I'd say that no good is irrelevant. Even if bad consequences arise also, the good is not negated.

That's a strange way of thinking...

So...you'd say that, no matter how much bad something causes, it's only the good that it causes that determines exactly how good it is?

Quote:

It's just that there's no difference between matter and energy. Matter is a specific form of energy. That's one reason that there is no conservation of matter.

So then how is it that this energy converted into matter?

How exactly? I couldn't tell you. It's a matter of quantum mechanics, which, as of yet, i don't entirely understand.

I can assure you that it happens, though. It's been observed experimentally.

Quote:

Furthermore, where is the background energy originating from?

Well, that's kind of the point: it originates from nowhere. It just happens.

*why* does it do that? No one really knows. Or, rather, we do sort of know, it's just that there are a number of interpretations as to exactly what it means, none of which have really been ruled out.

Long story short, the amount of energy in a system can and does fluctuate freely and (apparently) randomly between certain values; this results in energy appearing and disappearing.

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Not necessarily happiness, but freedom from suffering.

I find that people measure suffering relative to happiness...and happiness relative to suffering. I don't see how you can have freedom from suffering without happiness.

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People have also, generally speaking, help that belief in God is important. In fact, as long as there has been morality, there has been religion.

I'd be interested to see your evidence for making such a claim.

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They are the two oldest concepts of the advanced human psyche (excluding the basic animal instincts such as survival).

And except for language. And cooperation. And hunting tactics. Etc.

emceeMC
Not a Newbie

Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 64

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:05 am Post subject:

Quote:

So...you'd say that, no matter how much bad something causes, it's only the good that it causes that determines exactly how good it is?

No. Pinochet fought communism, great. He also destroyed lives. The bad outweighed the good egregiously. If the bad in religion egregiously outweighed the good, I'd say you might have an argument. However, religion has helped literally billions of people put meaning and purpose to their lives, and as much as it physically hurt people, it has done much good as well.

People constantly pervert the true tenets of religion. Every major religion you come across will tell you that you need to help your fellow man. However, people, radicals, distort this. They even go so far as to kill for their beliefs. That doesnt mean true religion is bad.

Free speech is responsible for things like the KKK and other hate speech organizations that hurt thee world. Is free speech bad? No, the people using it are..

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How exactly? I couldn't tell you. It's a matter of quantum mechanics, which, as of yet, i don't entirely understand.

I can assure you that it happens, though. It's been observed experimentally.

Lol, "I cant tell you how or why, but I believe in it!" Thats about as logical as humans and dinosaurs in the same time period. What experiment has proved this theory you have no understanding of?

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Well, that's kind of the point: it originates from nowhere. It just happens.

Oh, thats veerrrryyyyy scientific. "It just happens." Was that Stephen Hawking who said that? Thats some deep stuff. Am I wrong, or is a fundamental tenet of science is that nothing "just happens?"

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I find that people measure suffering relative to happiness...and happiness relative to suffering. I don't see how you can have freedom from suffering without happiness.

You can engage in hedonistic practices like the author of this thread would have us do, be happy, and not suffer. Your life, however, won't be very interesting. It is important to help people be freed of suffering so they can make their own happiness in life.

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I'd be interested to see your evidence for making such a claim.

Neanderthal humans buried their dead, most historians agree that that indicates a belief in the afterlife. They buried their dead with things they thought they might need in the afterlife. This code of morality of respect for the dead set the stage for the more complex religions that would develop over time.

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And except for language. And cooperation. And hunting tactics. Etc.

Hunting and cooperation being used for...survival. But you've got me, language is up there is age too.

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