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Spider Jerusalem
Not a Newbie
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 73
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 Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| Guido wrote: | | Who was that aimed at? I'm not pointing any finger. |
You know what you did. For shame.  |
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Guido
Newbie
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:59 am Post subject: |
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please enlighten me.  quote perhapse? |
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joeyjock
Forum Elder
Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 2108
Location: Fort Lauderdale
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| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Spider Jerusalem wrote: | Stalin was an athiest.
But i'm not going to sit here and defend religious doctrine. I don't need to. It's stupid to blame religion for war. War starts for all kindsof reasons.
Women
Power
Money
Religion
Boredom
You can't eradicate these concepts. So just try to help prevent war instead of being a douche and pointing fingers at one of the many concepts that people do war for. |
You cannot deny history and say that the vast majority of war has been religiously motivated
Whether or not there maybe an economic factor involved is besides the point
Religion and religious intolerance has killed more people than the plague over the last few centuries
across Europe alone
it's a rallying point for people to take refuge in on both sides of an arguement...but you cannot argue with history |
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Lester
Forum Elder
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650
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| Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:58 am Post subject: |
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I would say that there are four things that motivate any person to do anything:
sex, money, power, and sex.
Money is really just units of poer, since the more money the more power and the less money the less power, so really we just have:
sex, power, power, and sex
However, all sex is about power, whether it is a sharing of it, or a giving of it or a taking of it it is power that drives the sexual being, which leaves us with this:
power, power, power, and power.
Now Religon is the ultimate power, power over mind, and heart and the concept of soul.
Not only that, but most of them worship someone who is ALL powerful.
Wars are about religon, because religon is the best conveyor of power yet, and power is the only motivator humans have. |
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exton
Forum Elder
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| Lester wrote: | I would say that there are four things that motivate any person to do anything:
sex, money, power, and sex. |
I, for one, am disinterested in power. And i'm only indirectly interested in money.
And sex won't get me to do anything. Not nearly.
| Quote: |
Money is really just units of power, since the more money the more power and the less money the less power, so really we just have:
sex, power, power, and sex
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Well, it's really in units of resources. It just so happens that, since resources are limited, possessing them grants you the ability to hold power over others, since others desire the resources you have.
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However, all sex is about power, whether it is a sharing of it, or a giving of it or a taking of it it is power that drives the sexual being
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No, no i don't buy that. For some people, sex is about power.
But for many (even most, perhaps), it's just a matter of pleasure. Physical and/or emotional pleasure. It's of the same sort of pleasure you get from eating chocolate, not the sort of pleasure you get from wielding power.
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Wars are about religon, because religon is the best conveyor of power yet, and power is the only motivator humans have. |
Wars are about economics, control of resources. Religion is only sometimes used to motivate otherwise unwilling soldiers. |
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Giancarlo
Known Associate
Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 248
Location: Los Angeles, California
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| Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Wars have been about religion, but they also have been about geo-politics and economics. Presently, the Ethiopian government has sent in something like 5,000 troops into Somalia, but they did that for primarily economics and border security (though there was a religious aspect to it, where they did not want the Islamic Courts to seize complete control). There have been wars about religion, most certainly... and I feel religion has done more harm than good towards humanity (I'm atheist). However, there have been a few wars caused by economic reasoning. |
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CryxicKiller
Known Associate
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 332
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 2:53 am Post subject: |
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Joeyjock, refer to my earlier comments in this thread about why people fight. This statement caught my attention:
"Religion and religious intolerance has killed more people than the plague over the last few centuries
across Europe alone"
This is blatantly false. That is, it's not just simply false, but it is so far from the truth that its very utterance causes those weird feelings in the stomach. Up until the twentieth century, disease was indisputably the greatest killer of humans (it was the greatest killer in the French invasion of Russia in 1812 and the American Civil War, to name just a few conflicts). Religious wars or other religious actions do not even come close, hence the ridiculousness of this statement. |
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Giancarlo
Known Associate
Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 248
Location: Los Angeles, California
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| I think people are stating that religion and religious oppression were the biggest killer of humans caused directly by humans who use it as weapons. |
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CryxicKiller
Known Associate
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 332
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| Giancarlo wrote: | | I think people are stating that religion and religious oppression were the biggest killer of humans caused directly by humans who use it as weapons. |
Maybe that's what some are stating, but I wasn't replying to them. I was replying to Joey, who clearly compared suffering caused by religion to disease. |
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joeyjock
Forum Elder
Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 2108
Location: Fort Lauderdale
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| CryxicKiller wrote: | Joeyjock, refer to my earlier comments in this thread about why people fight. This statement caught my attention:
"Religion and religious intolerance has killed more people than the plague over the last few centuries
across Europe alone"
This is blatantly false. That is, it's not just simply false, but it is so far from the truth that its very utterance causes those weird feelings in the stomach. Up until the twentieth century, disease was indisputably the greatest killer of humans (it was the greatest killer in the French invasion of Russia in 1812 and the American Civil War, to name just a few conflicts). Religious wars or other religious actions do not even come close, hence the ridiculousness of this statement. |
Now you're getting into semantics here...
what came first the chicken or the invasion of Moscow?...
You're actually going to say that the Norman conquests
the War of the Roses
The Seven years war of Central Europe
The Wars Btw Spain and England
Btw Spain and Holland
the Empire building wars of Venice
France Spain and Austro-Hungary on and on
did not themselves MAKE suffering and disease? |
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PeaceLoveandRockNRoll
Known Associate
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 300
Location: Richmond, IN
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| joeyjock wrote: | | CryxicKiller wrote: | Joeyjock, refer to my earlier comments in this thread about why people fight. This statement caught my attention:
"Religion and religious intolerance has killed more people than the plague over the last few centuries
across Europe alone"
This is blatantly false. That is, it's not just simply false, but it is so far from the truth that its very utterance causes those weird feelings in the stomach. Up until the twentieth century, disease was indisputably the greatest killer of humans (it was the greatest killer in the French invasion of Russia in 1812 and the American Civil War, to name just a few conflicts). Religious wars or other religious actions do not even come close, hence the ridiculousness of this statement. |
Now you're getting into semantics here...
what came first the chicken or the invasion of Moscow?...
You're actually going to say that the Norman conquests
the War of the Roses
The Seven years war of Central Europe
The Wars Btw Spain and England
Btw Spain and Holland
the Empire building wars of Venice
France Spain and Austro-Hungary on and on
did not themselves MAKE suffering and disease? |
Okay, but can you demonstrate that religion was the <i>primary cause</i> of those conflicts, as opposed to a cover for political or economic motivation? The Seven Years War, for example, was entirely about politics and colonial clashes. Just because somebody says "God told me we hafta kill the infidels" doesn't mean religion is why the war happened. |
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Lester
Forum Elder
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| exton wrote: |
I, for one, am disinterested in power. And i'm only indirectly interested in money.
And sex won't get me to do anything. Not nearly. |
Please enlighten me then, what *does* motivate you? I bet it relates to one of those four.
[quote]
Well, it's really in units of resources. It just so happens that, since resources are limited, possessing them grants you the ability to hold power over others, since others desire the resources you have.[\quote]
It used to be that those with more power had more resources, but that was a little ambigous, so they introduced money to stand in for power.
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No, no i don't buy that. For some people, sex is about power.
But for many (even most, perhaps), it's just a matter of pleasure. Physical and/or emotional pleasure. It's of the same sort of pleasure you get from eating chocolate, not the sort of pleasure you get from wielding power. |
Pleasure isn't about power? If you give the pleasure you have power, if you take the pleasure you have power, and if you share the pleasure you have power. Chocolate, like all food, gives you life, and if it is not a source of sustenance(and hence power through life) it gives you a sense of power in that you are going above and beyond mere need.
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Wars are about economics, control of resources. Religion is only sometimes used to motivate otherwise unwilling soldiers. |
This is what I'm saying, religon is a tool used to spur on conflict, it is the most powerful tool, because it grabs hold of the only motivator of humans there is, power. |
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exton
Forum Elder
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Lester wrote: |
Please enlighten me then, what *does* motivate you? I bet it relates to one of those four. |
The desire for happiness. Power doesn't make me happy, and while sex makes me happy, a single act of sex cannot maximize my happiness throughout life - hence, sex can't get me to do *anything*. And sex alone isn't enough; i need a certain quality of sex.
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It used to be that those with more power had more resources, but that was a little ambigous, so they introduced money to stand in for power.
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You've got your causality backwards. It's the resources that determine power, not the other way around. Money stands in for resources.
Of course, other things influence power; charisma and all that. But that's not what lends money its power; its the resources that money commands that lends it power.
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Pleasure isn't about power? If you give the pleasure you have power, if you take the pleasure you have power, and if you share the pleasure you have power.
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Indeed.
But the pleasure doesn't inherently derive from the power; the power derives from the pleasure. Some people get pleasure from power itself, but not all do.
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Chocolate, like all food, gives you life, and if it is not a source of sustenance(and hence power through life) it gives you a sense of power in that you are going above and beyond mere need.
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Are there people who really think that way?
I enjoy chocolate, personally, because it tastes good. That's all there is to it; it's a matter of chemistry, not a matter of interpersonal relationships or any such thing. In my experience, that's the case with most people as well.
Of course, i DO enjoy going above and beyond mere need, but not because of the fact that i'm exceeding my needs; it's largely coincidental that some of the most pleasureable things are also the least necessary.
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This is what I'm saying, religon is a tool used to spur on conflict, it is the most powerful tool, because it grabs hold of the only motivator of humans there is, power. |
Which is clearly not the case; humans in general are not motivated only by power. Some are not motivated by power at all. A very small number are motivated only by power, and even those are probably suffering from psychological issues that are not related to power. |
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Lester
Forum Elder
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| exton wrote: |
The desire for happiness. Power doesn't make me happy, and while sex makes me happy, a single act of sex cannot maximize my happiness throughout life - hence, sex can't get me to do *anything*. And sex alone isn't enough; i need a certain quality of sex.
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I would argue that everything that does make you happy is derived from the amount of power that you wield, whichever form that power might take. i.e. enjoying a beautiful spring morning for example, is only made possible by the fact that you do not have to be working at that particular time to keep yourself alive, hence the power that allows you free time allows you the chance to enjoy that spring morning. Not only this, but the power the morning has over you, to take you away from the humdrumness of regular life, is also part of the reason why you enjoy it so much.
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You've got your causality backwards. It's the resources that determine power, not the other way around. Money stands in for resources.
Of course, other things influence power; charisma and all that. But that's not what lends money its power; its the resources that money commands that lends it power. |
Who had the most resources when we were cavemen? The biggest, the strongest, the most powerful. Who had the most resources when we were hunter gatherer humans?? The biggest, the strongest, the most powerful. Who had the most resources when we began to have money? Those that made the money, the biggest, the strongest, the most powerful, the kings and queens of old. Money represents resources, but those that had the resources were those that were most powerful, in the beginning it was mostly about physical strength, but intellect and charisma become powerful as humans began to think more and more.
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Indeed.
But the pleasure doesn't inherently derive from the power; the power derives from the pleasure. Some people get pleasure from power itself, but not all do.
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Without the exchange of power there is no pleasure.
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Are there people who really think that way?
I enjoy chocolate, personally, because it tastes good. That's all there is to it; it's a matter of chemistry, not a matter of interpersonal relationships or any such thing. In my experience, that's the case with most people as well.
Of course, i DO enjoy going above and beyond mere need, but not because of the fact that i'm exceeding my needs; it's largely coincidental that some of the most pleasureable things are also the least necessary. |
Everyone thinks like that, they just don't realize it. Chocolate tastes good BECAUSE it is a luxury, chemistry is not the only thing that creates pleasure, people who have different personalities enjoy different foods, because their minds *make* the food taste good.
I would posit that all things you think are pleasurable go above and beyond your needs, and if they do not, then the pleasure is derived from your mind congratulating you on keeping your body alive.
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Which is clearly not the case; humans in general are not motivated only by power. Some are not motivated by power at all. A very small number are motivated only by power, and even those are probably suffering from psychological issues that are not related to power. |
My original point was that everything that motivates people is really just about power. |
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Giancarlo
Known Associate
Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 248
Location: Los Angeles, California
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Lester wrote: |
Everyone thinks like that, they just don't realize it. Chocolate tastes good BECAUSE it is a luxury, chemistry is not the only thing that creates pleasure, people who have different personalities enjoy different foods, because their minds *make* the food taste good. |
Chocolate isn't a luxury. Even the poorest person in this country can afford it. Tolberone (swiss chocolate) in this one store was only $2. Chocolate taste good BECAUSE it has a lush flavor. |
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