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capitalist
Known Associate
Joined: 16 Mar 2008
Posts: 293
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 Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| exton wrote: |
The difference, though, is that you're not just saying "this is a bad tax, we should agree to get rid of it". You're calling it theft.
My point is that it isn't theft - by living in, and participating in, civilization, you implicitly agree to abide by group-determined rules. Such as taxes.
You can call a tax bad, or stupid, and you can say we should change it or get rid of it. But you can't call it "theft" unless you're being forced to live in and participate in society, because theft can only occur when the person being stolen from is a wholly unwilling participant. |
You're relying on the social contract theory to justify stealing. You can't justify theft because it has been happening for a while or because the majority approves of it.
Lets say the "group" decided that it was okay to hang black people (like it did not too long ago...). Would you say to blacks "its not murder, its a group determined rule. You're not being forced to live here, so its not coercive" ?
Stealing is wrong regardless of what the "group" thinks. |
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Toxic
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Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1560
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | You're relying on the social contract theory to justify stealing. You can't justify theft because it has been happening for a while or because the majority approves of it.
Lets say the "group" decided that it was okay to hang black people (like it did not too long ago...). Would you say to blacks "its not murder, its a group determined rule. You're not being forced to live here, so its not coercive" ?
Stealing is wrong regardless of what the "group" thinks. |
The entire reason we have any rules in the first place is that the group allows it. It isn't dictatorship (or fascism, or some other negative word) to implement laws prohibiting murder for that precise reason. A person might believe that it is because it is technically limiting their freedom to do whatever they like, but as a society, we deem it to be something that is good. The same applies to taxes. |
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shankarsingam
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Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 1145
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| capitalist wrote: | Shankar, you need a source to believe that socialism has failed time and time again? You need me to provide a source to say that there is less competition under socialism? You need me to provide a source to say that wait times will be longer under a socialized health care system?
These are not statistics or particularly novel ideas. Instead of demanding "Source? Source? Source?" debate my ideas if you disagree with them |
Okay Capitalist, show me one example of a country with socialized health or universal health, didnt like it and completely switched to privatized health.
That would be an example of failed socialized health.
All you have are assertions. |
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TrespassersW
Veteran
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 990
Location: North Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: So i had to go to the hospital last night |
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| shankarsingam wrote: | My wife slipped climbing through our kitchen window(dont ask) and slammed her head on the concrete patio, she then had headaches, got dizzy and her muscles in her neck start to stiffen. She went to the university health center(free), who in turn told her to go to the emergency room.
I get a call from her asking me to take her to Kaiser Permanente ER(our HMO). I left work and took her knowing it would be some hours.
After a 6 hour wait in the emergency room, she was absolutley fed up and wanted to leave against my advice. People were going to the receptionist and complaining. One mother whose son had a broken arm was frantic at the 6 hour wait, while her young son cried in pain.
Another hour passed by and i finally went to the receptionist and lodged my compalaint, 20 minutes later we got in, it felt like we won the lottery.
3 hours later, we emerged from the emergency room, my wife doped up on anti-inflammatory and pain killers with slight case of whiplash. I paid the $150 co-pay, $60 bottle of vicadins. Along with the $300/month I usually pay even though i dont use the hospital, I felt somewhat ripped off by this company, but had no choice in the matter.
Now, I ask the cons, is this what you call the best healthcare in the world? How is this better then medicare/socialized health and what is your proof? |
Thank the DEMOCRATS (specifically Ted Kennedy) for HMO's. It sounds like your insurance sucks. That's a shame. Shop around for something better. (I'm with a Cigna PPO that is excellent, FWIW.)
And I sincerely wish your wife the best and hope she is fine! |
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exton
Forum Elder
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| capitalist wrote: |
You're relying on the social contract theory to justify stealing. You can't justify theft because it has been happening for a while or because the majority approves of it.
Lets say the "group" decided that it was okay to hang black people (like it did not too long ago...). Would you say to blacks "its not murder, its a group determined rule. You're not being forced to live here, so its not coercive" ? |
Hm. I see your point.
| Quote: |
Stealing is wrong regardless of what the "group" thinks. |
So when is taxing theft, and when is it not theft? |
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shankarsingam
Forum Elder
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 1145
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: So i had to go to the hospital last night |
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| TrespassersW wrote: | | shankarsingam wrote: | My wife slipped climbing through our kitchen window(dont ask) and slammed her head on the concrete patio, she then had headaches, got dizzy and her muscles in her neck start to stiffen. She went to the university health center(free), who in turn told her to go to the emergency room.
I get a call from her asking me to take her to Kaiser Permanente ER(our HMO). I left work and took her knowing it would be some hours.
After a 6 hour wait in the emergency room, she was absolutley fed up and wanted to leave against my advice. People were going to the receptionist and complaining. One mother whose son had a broken arm was frantic at the 6 hour wait, while her young son cried in pain.
Another hour passed by and i finally went to the receptionist and lodged my compalaint, 20 minutes later we got in, it felt like we won the lottery.
3 hours later, we emerged from the emergency room, my wife doped up on anti-inflammatory and pain killers with slight case of whiplash. I paid the $150 co-pay, $60 bottle of vicadins. Along with the $300/month I usually pay even though i dont use the hospital, I felt somewhat ripped off by this company, but had no choice in the matter.
Now, I ask the cons, is this what you call the best healthcare in the world? How is this better then medicare/socialized health and what is your proof? |
Thank the DEMOCRATS (specifically Ted Kennedy) for HMO's. It sounds like your insurance sucks. That's a shame. Shop around for something better. (I'm with a Cigna PPO that is excellent, FWIW.)
And I sincerely wish your wife the best and hope she is fine! |
I hate Cigna. I had it before Kaiser. They fired their senior doctors, including mine and replaced with younger doctors, who didnt' know squat. I thought Cigna was bought out by Friendly Hills.
Bottom line though, do i need to pay $500 to wait 10 hours for slight case of whiplash? |
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TrespassersW
Veteran
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 990
Location: North Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| exton wrote: | | So when is taxing theft, and when is it not theft? |
I would suggest that taxation equates to theft when it is for purposes not specifically enumerated in the people's contract with their government. (The Constitution, in the case of the federal government.)
If we have empowered the government to do a thing, it is reasonable and proper for them to use taxation to pay to accomplish that thing. When they tax us to do other things, or in order to force us to do that which they think we should (taxes used for charity), it's wrong. "Theft?" ... I don't like throwing legal terms around where they don't strictly apply, but since you used it in your question... |
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capitalist
Known Associate
Joined: 16 Mar 2008
Posts: 293
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| TrespassersW wrote: | | exton wrote: | | So when is taxing theft, and when is it not theft? |
I would suggest that taxation equates to theft when it is for purposes not specifically enumerated in the people's contract with their government. (The Constitution, in the case of the federal government.)
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YES, exactly.
If you believe in the social contract theory -- the real contract in the US is the constitution. When the gov't taxes us for purposes not in the constitution, it is theft because they are breaking their promise.
The United States is not a democracy. It is a constitutional republic. All 'democracy' means is the dictatorship of the majority. If the majority wants there to be universal health care, it shouldn't matter since the constitution doesn't give the federal gov't the right to be involved in health care. Unfortunately barely anyone pays attention to the constitution anymore so this is not the case |
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capitalist
Known Associate
Joined: 16 Mar 2008
Posts: 293
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| shankarsingam wrote: |
Okay Capitalist, show me one example of a country with socialized health or universal health, didnt like it and completely switched to privatized health.
That would be an example of failed socialized health.
All you have are assertions. |
Socialism often takes time to fail -- so give it time, shankar.
Or you could look at the health care situation in Canada which is absolutely brutal. It takes 8 months to make an appointment so wealthy Canadians are leaving the country and coming to America to get medical help. This is an example of universal healthcare making it even more expensive to get health care. If a canadian wants health care he must either bribe the doctor or leave the country. |
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shankarsingam
Forum Elder
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 1145
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| capitalist wrote: | | shankarsingam wrote: |
Okay Capitalist, show me one example of a country with socialized health or universal health, didnt like it and completely switched to privatized health.
That would be an example of failed socialized health.
All you have are assertions. |
Socialism often takes time to fail -- so give it time, shankar.
Or you could look at the health care situation in Canada which is absolutely brutal. It takes 8 months to make an appointment so wealthy Canadians are leaving the country and coming to America to get medical help. This is an example of universal healthcare making it even more expensive to get health care. If a canadian wants health care he must either bribe the doctor or leave the country. |
So you cant show me that socialized health is a failure yet you continue to pose a false statement that socialized health is a failure.
It takes me 6 months to get an eye appointment with Kaiser.
Ever hear of the latest american trend of medical tourism? 200 bucks for lasik....in Thailand. |
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exton
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Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| capitalist wrote: | | If the majority wants there to be universal health care, it shouldn't matter since the constitution doesn't give the federal gov't the right to be involved in health care. Unfortunately barely anyone pays attention to the constitution anymore so this is not the case |
That's the narrow view of the constitution. It's not a view that i share. |
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capitalist
Known Associate
Joined: 16 Mar 2008
Posts: 293
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:52 am Post subject: |
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| exton wrote: |
That's the narrow view of the constitution. It's not a view that i share. |
I understand. Not many people do.
Even if I had a more 'liberal' view of the constitution, I would still oppose universal health care. |
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fellfire
Forum Elder
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 2021
Location: Washington DC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| capitalist wrote: | | exton wrote: |
That's the narrow view of the constitution. It's not a view that i share. |
I understand. Not many people do.
Even if I had a more 'liberal' view of the constitution, I would still oppose universal health care. |
So your concept of taxes being "theft" is an opinion of a small minority of people. |
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shankarsingam
Forum Elder
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 1145
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| capitalist wrote: | | shankarsingam wrote: |
Okay Capitalist, show me one example of a country with socialized health or universal health, didnt like it and completely switched to privatized health.
That would be an example of failed socialized health.
All you have are assertions. |
Socialism often takes time to fail -- so give it time, shankar.
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Takes time to fail?
England has had government health since world war 2. Thats over 60 years and its still working providing health to all its citizens. Ours is just over 30 and is already falling apart, leaving 40 million citizens not covered.
So you were saying?
Again, you posts have no validity and your arguments are based on pure speculation.
owned. |
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cornopean
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3576
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| shankarsingam wrote: | | England has had government health since world war 2. Thats over 60 years and its still working providing health to all its citizens. |
these things are so childishly easy to refute. Here is the BBC:
The poll of 1,000 people, by TNS on behalf of Norwich Union Healthcare, showed most expect to wait five months for a hip operation.
Most wait nearer 11 months, independent medical researchers Dr Fosters said.
Patients also had unrealistic expectations for other operations and many said they did not know where to go to find out waiting times.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3749801.stm
what really does "access to health care" mean if you got to wait 11 months?
| Quote: |
Ours is just over 30 and is already falling apart, leaving 40 million citizens not covered.
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what if many of those 40 mill don't want insurance for whatever reason?
and if our system is falling apart, why do people come here for health care? |
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