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Toxic
Forum Elder
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1560
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 Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| cornopean wrote: | | Anym wrote: | | cornopean wrote: | | I think liberals do and have done untold damage to the African race in the US. |
stormfront.org |
that's some sick action, there. just as sick as Jeremiah Wright. I condemn both. what losers. |
What in the fuck does Wright have to do with this? You keep bringing him up like he's clamped onto your elbow and you just can't get him off. You are obsessed with your absolute disgust and hatred of the idea that someone would believe or say something different from yourself. |
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Timetheos
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Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 469
Location: Seattle
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Anym
Forum Elder
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 2562
Location: Jersey
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Rumors of black inferiority |
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| cornopean wrote: | | Anym wrote: |
Who's using lower criteria? |
you do know what affirmative action is, right? they lower the standards so they can admit more black students or firemen or whatever. |
Well it seems your the one claiming blacks are inferior.
How do you know that "they" aren't hiring blacks of equal or greater skill? |
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cornopean
Forum Elder
Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3576
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: Re: Rumors of black inferiority |
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| Anym wrote: |
Well it seems your the one claiming blacks are inferior.
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I knew it was only a matter of time before some lib claimed this about me.  didn't take long.
| Quote: | | How do you know that "they" aren't hiring blacks of equal or greater skill? |
well take the U of Mich. they went all the way to the Supreme Court to preserve their right to accept blacks using a lower measure than the others. |
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Toxic
Forum Elder
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1560
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: Rumors of black inferiority |
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| Quote: | | I knew it was only a matter of time before some lib claimed this about me. didn't take long. |
How DARE you? You've been on these forums trashing liberals over race issues saying that they're worse than the KKK and have damaged minorities for years to come, and yet the second your racial understanding is questioned, you act as if you should be immune. You've got some nerve, corno.
| Quote: | | well take the U of Mich. they went all the way to the Supreme Court to preserve their right to accept blacks using a lower measure than the others. |
Wow corno, way to display how uninformed you are on AA again. The University of Michigan didn't go to the Supreme Court to preserve their right to "accept blacks using a lower measure than the others". They went to the Supreme Court to affirm their policy of considering race in the admissions process to assure a healthy, diverse student body.
http://umich.edu/news/index.ht.....remecourt2 |
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cornopean
Forum Elder
Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3576
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:53 pm Post subject: Re: Rumors of black inferiority |
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| Toxic wrote: |
How DARE you? |
this is a discussion forum, isn't it?
| Quote: |
You've been on these forums trashing liberals over race issues saying that they're worse than the KKK... |
No I said no such thing.
| Quote: | ...and have damaged minorities for years to come, and yet the second your racial understanding is questioned, you act as if you should be immune. You've got some nerve, corno.
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I do not believe any race to be more intelligent than any other race. I thot my question sorta made that clear. but libs want affirmative action. so......I think libs need to answer the question. do you think Blacks are inferior?
| Quote: | | They went to the Supreme Court to affirm their policy of considering race in the admissions process to assure a healthy, diverse student body. |
first what is the difference between what I claimed and what you said?
second, why is a diverse student body more healthy? |
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Toxic
Forum Elder
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1560
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject: Re: Rumors of black inferiority |
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| Quote: | | No I said no such thing. |
ROFL! I've even quoted this to you before, and yet you still deny it? You are such a lying sack of crap.
http://www.liberalsvsconservat.....html#31592
| Quote: | | I think blacks should fear libs more than they fear the KKK. |
Read: Libs are worse than the KKK.
| Quote: | | I do not believe any race to be more intelligent than any other race. I thot my question sorta made that clear. but libs want affirmative action. so......I think libs need to answer the question. do you think Blacks are inferior? |
NO! How many times do I have to repeat why I support Affirmative Action before you stop asking this question?
| Quote: | | first what is the difference between what I claimed and what you said? |
Considering a minority student because you want more students of minority in your school because you want more diversity doesn't mean you consider the students of minority to be inferior.
| Quote: | | second, why is a diverse student body more healthy? |
Are you asking why diversity is good? |
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cornopean
Forum Elder
Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3576
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:49 am Post subject: Re: Rumors of black inferiority |
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| Toxic wrote: | | Quote: | | I think blacks should fear libs more than they fear the KKK. |
Read: Libs are worse than the KKK. |
that doesn't follow at all. the KKK is an evil organization. liberals are not evil. but there are so few KKK out there that blacks don't need to fear them. but liberals are doing so much harm to blacks that there is good reason for fear.
| Quote: | | Considering a minority student because you want more students of minority in your school because you want more diversity doesn't mean you consider the students of minority to be inferior. |
but in order to get the minority students in, they have to lower or adjust their admission standards. the standard will no longer be based strictly on grades or test scores.
| Quote: | | Are you asking why diversity is good? |
why is diversity a desirable thing for a university? does it make it easier to learn? does it make teaching easier? I don't get it. |
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Toxic
Forum Elder
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1560
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:30 am Post subject: Re: Rumors of black inferiority |
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| Quote: | | that doesn't follow at all. the KKK is an evil organization. liberals are not evil. but there are so few KKK out there that blacks don't need to fear them. but liberals are doing so much harm to blacks that there is good reason for fear. |
People that genuinely care about racial inequality and work to force diversity into the mainstream are worse than the truly hateful because there are less of the hateful and more of the caring. Right.
| Quote: | | but in order to get the minority students in, they have to lower or adjust their admission standards. |
Check my next post.
| Quote: | | why is diversity a desirable thing for a university? does it make it easier to learn? does it make teaching easier? I don't get it. |
A diverse university leads to a number of things:
1) Diversity on campuses is a big selling point for universities. Incoming students of both minority- and majority-status want to attend schools with people who are different.
2) A diverse atmosphere helps lead to the erasure of racial stereotypes and ignorance, thus tearing down racial barriers that have existed in this country since its creation.
3) Experience. Learning and working with people of all colors, races, sexes, religions (and lack thereof), nationalities, etc. leads to a great life experience.
4) Diversity in the classroom positively influences education and social development.
| Quote: | | Exposure to diverse interactions with students outside one's own racial group--such as through curricula, multicultural events and residence halls--tends to positively influence education and social development, said psychologist Gretchen E. Lopez, PhD, of Syracuse University. Such exposure, she said, tends to help students perceive commonality with diverse groups, participate in their own racial group activities as well as others' and support educational equity. |
I'm really only surprised that you're asking about diversity on a campus. Aren't you angry that universities supposedly don't foster political diversity? Or is diversity only good if it's something you happen to care about, like the expansion of conservative political influence? |
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Toxic
Forum Elder
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1560
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:44 am Post subject: |
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The U of M has an entire page dedicated to this issue, and it addresses nearly every argument I've heard on this:
http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/ad.....amp;a.html
| Quote: | Q: Is it lawful for the University to consider race in admissions?
A: Yes, under current law, universities are permitted to take an applicant's race into account. The Supreme Court in its 1978 Bakke ruling said that the educational benefit of diversity is a compelling government interest justifying the use of race as a factor in admissions, as long as all students admitted are fully qualified and their admissions are not based on quotas.
Justice Powell, who wrote the Court's decision in the Bakke case, said race could be used as a "plus factor" in an admissions process. When race is used as a plus factor, it necessarily influences admissions decisions. At its simplest, whenever an adjustment is made for any characteristic, that adjustment may prove to have made a difference in the ultimate admissions decision.
Our consideration of race is legal according to Bakke, because race is only one of many factors that admissions counselors use in selecting students for admission to the University. Our admissions processes do not use quotas, targets or other numeric goals, and only qualified students with a high probability of succeeding at Michigan are offered admission.
Q: Is Michigan's admissions process unique?
A: Virtually all the selective universities in this country take race into account in admissions. Different schools may have different methods for adding race in their admissions equations. Our methods in both undergraduate and Law School admissions at Michigan are two lawful means of using race as a "plus factor."
Q: What does the University say to students who feel they were academically qualified for admission, yet rejected?
A: Each year, Michigan receives many more applications from well qualified students than we can admit to the entering class. This past year, we received more than 25,000 applications for about 5,300 spaces in the incoming freshman class, and for the incoming Law School class of 2002, more than 5,000 applications for approximately 350 spaces. In the end, the University must reject thousands of applications from talented students. We fully appreciate the sense of disappointment felt by an unsuccessful applicant. But the limited size of the entering class requires that the University exercise judgment and choose among this talented applicant pool to assemble a student body it believes will provide the richest possible environment in which to pursue higher education.
Q: Does the University's consideration of race hurt a white student's chances of getting into the University?
A: No. The numbers of minority applicants are extremely small compared to the numbers of white students who apply to the University. The Law School, for example has for the last 10 years had an average offer rate of 29 percent for Caucasian applicants, and 26 percent for African American applicants. Out of the fall 2002 entering class of 352, only 21 are African American. Similarly, of the approximately 24,000 applications received each year for admissions to the College of Literature, Science & the Arts, only about 1,800 come from underrepresented minorities. It is not mathematically possible that the small numbers of minority students who apply and are admitted are "displacing" a significant number of white students under any scenario.
William Bowen and Derek Bok, in their book "The Shape of the River," look at the nationwide statistics concerning admissions to selective universities. They determined that even if all selective universities used a race-blind admissions system, the probability of being admitted for a white student would go only from 25 percent to 26.2 percent.
Q: How does the 20 points for race fit into the rest of Michigan's undergraduate admissions process?
A: Our undergraduate admissions office is staffed with a group of professional counselors, assigned by regions of the country, who develop relationships with and specialized knowledge of the high schools in those regions. Throughout the admissions process, counselors consider a variety of information about an applicant, including the application, essay, high school transcript, letters of recommendation, and communications with high school counselors and teachers. To help evaluate the items in the file, the counselors use a Selection Index worksheet. That worksheet guides the counselor but does not solely determine admissions decisions.
The Selection Index used for the College of Literature, Science, and the Arts has 150 total points. Race is only one of a variety of factors that are considered. By far the greatest weight---up to 80 points---goes to high school G.P.A. Applicants can earn up to 12 points for SAT or ACT scores, up to 10 points for attending a competitive high school, and up to 8 points for taking the most challenging curriculum. Points are awarded for personal achievement, leadership and service, and for being an alumni legacy. Students also can earn points for coming from a geographic area that is less well represented on our campus. For instance, 16 points are given to students from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.
In a miscellaneous category, students can earn a total of 20 points for having an economically disadvantaged background, being an underrepresented minority, attending a high school serving a predominately minority population, or being a scholarship athlete, among others. The essay is an important portion of the application where students can communicate their unique personal histories and circumstances. Even though we only give 3 points (it used to be 1) for the quality of writing in the essay, the content of the essay may factor into many other portions of the admissions process.
Taken as a whole, the many criteria we consider are effective in composing a student body that is diverse in a variety of ways, as well as outstanding academically.
Q: If you consider race in admissions, doesn't that mean you have a two-track system?
A: No. All students are considered using the same criteria and the same process. "Two-track" is a label applied by our opponents to describe the fact that race is considered and can make a difference. Under this logic, we could be said to have a different track for every element of our admissions process: geography, outstanding leadership, alumni legacy, attending a competitive high school, etc.
Q: How can you prove that having a diverse student body results in a better education?
A: Research shows that all college students, non-minority and minority alike, learn better when the learning takes place in a setting where they are confronted with others who are different than themselves. U-M Professor Patricia Gurin found that students who experienced the most racial and ethnic diversity in classroom settings and in informal interactions with peers showed the greatest engagement in active thinking processes, growth in intellectual engagement and motivation, and growth in intellectual and academic skills. Students educated in a diverse environment are also better able to understand and consider multiple perspectives, deal with the conflicts that different perspectives sometimes create and appreciate the common values and integrative forces that harness differences in pursuit of the common good.
Faculty members across our campus can relate experiences where the learning taking place in their classrooms has been powerfully affected either by the presence of students from different races, or the lack thereof. For example, students' racial identities may affect their perception of important works of literature, their views on the political process and the role of government, and their analysis of marketing strategy. In the Law School, notes Dean Jeffrey Lehman, class discussions on topics such as racial profiling by police are profoundly different---and more intellectually challenging---when the classroom is racially integrated. A diverse classroom also allows students to dispel stereotypes they may harbor about race and viewpoint.
Race still matters in American society. Your race continues to have a large effect on where you live, where you go to school, who your friends are, and what doors are open or closed to you. Americans of different races lead surprisingly separate lives. This is especially true in Michigan, which has three of the 10 most segregated cities in the nation. Nine out of ten of the University's white students, and a sizeable percentage of Black students, grow up in racially separate communities. The result of this separation is that Michigan's incoming students have rarely had the opportunity to get to know and learn from peers of different races before coming to our campus.
Q: Wouldn't the minority students you are admitting do better elsewhere?
A: No. Research shows that the minority students who are challenged in a tougher academic environment, on average, perform better academically and achieve higher graduation rates than those admitted to less selective or less rigorous colleges and universities. This research has controlled for self-selection, so it is not just measuring the fact that the students at these more selective schools have stronger academic credentials.
Q: Does Michigan have any support for its views?
A: The University of Michigan has received broad-based support for its efforts to maintain a diverse student body. Nearly 80 organizations representing business, labor, public officials, higher education, and the legal profession have filed "friend of the Court" briefs on behalf of the University in the lawsuits. These supporters include 33 multinational corporations, such as General Motors, Intel, Microsoft, Steelcase, the Coca-Cola Company, Boeing, Kellogg, and Dow Chemical; 30 national higher-education organizations, including the American Council on Education, American Association of Univeristy Professors, National Education Association, and the Educational Testing Service; the American Bar Association; the UAW (International Union, United Automobile, Aerospace and Agricultural Implement Workers); and The Ohio State University.
Q: Why are corporations supporting the University's goal of diversity?
A: In their amicus briefs, the corporations argue that diversity in higher education plays a critical role in preparing students to be leaders in business and other pursuits that affect the public interest. Their briefs state that racial and ethnic diversity in institutions of higher education is vital to the corporations' efforts to hire and maintain an effective workforce.
Participants in the briefs report that managers and employees who graduated from institutions with diverse student bodies are better prepared to understand, learn from and collaborate with others from a variety of racial, ethnic and cultural backgrounds; demonstrate creative problem solving by integrating differing perspectives; exhibit the skills required for good teamwork; and demonstrate more effective responsiveness to the needs of all types of consumers. As a great public university, the U-M has an obligation to train the next generation of leaders who are prepared for the global, multiracial society they will be a part of.
Q: Isn't the fact that you're being sued evidence that you're doing something wrong?
A: The Center for Individual Rights (CIR), which brought these two lawsuits, is a special-interest legal organization funded by private sources. It has mounted a campaign of lawsuits and legislative initiatives in an attempt to dismantle affirmative action programs nationwide. CIR doesn't really care how the University considers race in its admissions policies, nor whether 20 points is the right amount to "count" race in our undergraduate admissions system. They find just as much fault with the Law School admissions process, which does not use a point system at all. For CIR, any consideration of race in an attempt to build a diverse educational environment is wrong. We hold a profoundly different view. We believe our system is the best one available to enroll academically qualified students of all races, and furthermore, that it is legal and fair.
Q: What will happen to the composition of the University of Michigan student body if the University loses this lawsuit?
A: If we are not permitted to consider race as a factor in our admissions process, we believe it will have a devastating effect on our ability to assemble a diverse student body. It is likely that the number of minority students enrolled at the University would decline significantly.
The experience at California's flagship public universities, Berkeley and the University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA), bears this out. Admission levels of underrepresented minorities---Blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans---dropped significantly after the passage of Proposition 209, the voter initiative that banned the use of race in university admissions; and the enrollment of underrepresented minorities at Berkeley and UCLA has not regained its earlier strength in the intervening years.
Other systems, such as using economic status as a proxy for race or admitting a given percentage of high graduating classes, are not as effective and have other serious flaws as well. The "percent solution" plans, for example, have the potential to shut out well-qualified students who attend competitive high schools, and they are more likely to admit students who are not academically prepared to do the work. They require a segregated system of secondary education for success, and do not work for graduate education because there are no similar segregated underpinnings on which to build. In states with affirmative action bans, minority enrollment at graduate schools has dropped dramatically and stayed low. |
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Timetheos
Known Associate
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 469
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| Excellent posts Toxic. |
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cornopean
Forum Elder
Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3576
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Rumors of black inferiority |
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I think a diversity of political opinions and ideas is very important. I think racial and cultural diversity is about as important as the color of the bathrooms.
that is my opinion. I certainly think universities should be allowed to admit whoever they want. if a university wants to use affirmative action they certainly should be allowed to do that. but, doesn't such a policy feed rumors of black inferiority. that is my main contention. |
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Timetheos
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Posts: 469
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| question....don't legacy policies feed rumors that children of college graduates are somehow inferior? |
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Toxic
Forum Elder
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1560
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Rumors of black inferiority |
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| Quote: | | I think a diversity of political opinions and ideas is very important. I think racial and cultural diversity is about as important as the color of the bathrooms. |
And why do you think that? What do you think of the idea I posted that racial diversity leads to better education?
| Quote: | | that is my opinion. I certainly think universities should be allowed to admit whoever they want. if a university wants to use affirmative action they certainly should be allowed to do that. |
If you believe they should be allowed to do what liberals advocate, why are liberals so terrible but you aren't?
| Quote: | | doesn't such a policy feed rumors of black inferiority. |
Are you on broken record mode or what? You didn't add anything new to make this point any more relevant than the last six times you've made it. Hell, I even posted a whole page of information relating to the reasons I believe affirmative action are great (note that black inferiority isn't one of them) and reasons why institutions that use affirmative action believe it's great, and you still only reply with the same assertion.
Do you actually want any of us to answer you, or are you just going to repeat yourself until someone says "yes, corny, it means they're inferior"? |
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Lester
Forum Elder
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:01 am Post subject: Re: Rumors of black inferiority |
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| cornopean wrote: | I think a diversity of political opinions and ideas is very important. I think racial and cultural diversity is about as important as the color of the bathrooms.
that is my opinion. I certainly think universities should be allowed to admit whoever they want. if a university wants to use affirmative action they certainly should be allowed to do that. but, doesn't such a policy feed rumors of black inferiority. that is my main contention. |
I think what it does is counteract the points that white people get just for being white and rich, like for example, the ten points for an upperclass school. And yes, white people are more likely to be rich so this does follow 
There is however, I agree, a way to look at this and say, well look, this white student didn't need to rely on his race to get in, while this black student did. However, that view is misinformed, because as I said, some of the point allocations, like going to an upperclass school or the SAT's(made for us middle/upper class whiteboys), can pretty much act like an affirmative action for white people. |
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