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chevydriver1123
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cornopean
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 Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:50 am Post subject: Re: Right Wing Christian Fascist Nut job slams Left Wing Soc |
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I think Dobson is a world wiser than Obama.
Imagine if Dobson were president and he appointed all the members of congress and the supreme court.
What would happen to our country? and btw....you don't have to agree with the man or even like him to realize that our nation would leap forward. Dobson would slash the reach of the federal govt in a big way. Yes, Dobson would ban gay marriage and abortion but that is all. He would make no other inroads on your privacy or your wallet. Dobson's country would be a country where people provided for themselves. The govt would not be there to bail you out. You make a mistake, you eat the consequences. On the flip side, if you do well....you eat those consequences too.
There is no question that Obama will ruin this country. Taxes are going up. We all know it. the Bush tax cuts are gone when Obama steps in. Corporate income tax and capital gains are going up. those are taxes that WE pay. Dont go for this nonsense that Obama will only raise taxes on the rich.
So Chevy.....if you HAD to vote, and Dobson and Obama were the only options....who do you pull the lever for?  |
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cornopean
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:16 am Post subject: Re: Right Wing Christian Fascist Nut job slams Left Wing Soc |
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I have quoted here wikipedia's article on the issues of the Christian right.
| Quote: | Economy
As a right-wing political movement, the Christian right is strongly opposed to left-wing ideologies such as Socialism, and opposed to left-wing policies such as the welfare state. One reason for the Christian Right's opposition to these movements is the significance given to the individual--individualism is an important component of the Christian Right ideology. Another reason is that communism was seen as a threat to the Western Judeo-Christian tradition.
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This is very true.
| Quote: | | It also supports economic conservative policies such as tax cuts and social conservative policies such as child tax credits[29] and State and Federal money for Christian causes and organizations. |
this also is true with the glaring exception of the last clause.
What does this clause mean? If it means that the federal govt gives tax payer money to religious organizations (not preferring one to another) then this is a true statement.
If it means that Christian organizations should have a preference, then it is patently false. There is no one on the Christian right who thinks that Christianity ought to have a preference when the govt hands out money. most on the christian right don't even agree with the govt handing out money in the first place. MANY fundamentalist Christians are libertarians on this point.
| Quote: |
Education
* Support for state sanctioned prayer in public schools |
not sure what this means. Most fundamentalist Christians favor private schooling or homeschooling so they could care less what the public schools do. But I am certain that nearly all fundy Christians would vigorously reject any govt attempt to force a christian prayer on anyone. this is obvious. They do think that prayer ought not be banned on the school campus.
| Quote: |
* Support for homeschooling, and private schooling, generally as an alternative to secular education. In recent years the percentage of children being home schooled has risen from 1.7% of the student population in 1999 to 2.2% in 2003.[30] Much of this increase has been attributed to the desire to incorporate Christian teachings into the curriculum.[31] In 2003 72% of parents who home school their children cited the ability to provide religious or moral instruction as the reason for homeschooling their children. |
All very true.
| Quote: | * The Christian Right strongly advocates for a system of educational choice mainly through the support of school vouchers.
o Vouchers would be government funded and could be redeemed for "a specified maximum sum per child per years if spent on approved educational services". [33] This method would allow parents to determine which school their child attends while relieving the economic burden associated with private schools. The concept is popular among constituents of church-related schools, including those affiliated with Roman Catholicism.
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All very true.
| Quote: |
* Modification of public school curriculum, including the following (in many cases, though not universally):
o Promotion of the teaching of creationism and intelligent design as opposed to evolution[34][35] The Discovery Institute and their Intelligent design initiative, the Center for Science and Culture, has pursued the strategy of getting the schools to utilize the "teach the controversy" approach, by discussing both the strengths and weaknesses of evolutionary theory in the curriculum.[36] This tactic was severely criticised by John E. Jones III in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, describing it as "at best disingenuous, and at worst a canard." |
All true altho again....so many fundamentalist Christians are already out of the public school system that most don't care a rat's behind for what the public schools do.
| Quote: | o On the issue of sexual education in public school's, a spectrum of views exist, from advocating no sex education in public schools to advocating abstinence until marriage, to advocating complete modesty and chastity. The Christian Right has been successful in pushing abstinence-only curricula; in fact 30 percent of America's sexual-education programs are abstinence based [37] . These programs promote abstinence until marriage as the only way to prevent against pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, and the other emotional issues that could arise from sexual activity. Unlike comprehensive sex-education programs, alternatives such as contraception and birth-control are only mentioned, in the context of their failure rates.
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same comment as previous.
| Quote: | | The Christian Right has made inroads on issues of the public school because many of their followers have been able to influence the curriculum of school districts by running for and winning school board elections. |
good for them. if you want to change a curriculum, this is how you do it in a free country. good for them. of course, most fundies don't even care about public education so they don't even try to influence it anymore. |
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chevydriver1123
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| Typical of you corno, defending a theocratic fascist, Dobson and his ilk would turn the US into a Christian version of Iran. Dobson and his ilk have no problem trampling on human rights if it goes along with his interpretation of the Bible, Dobson is scum and needs to hurry up and die. And if you must know Im voting for Bob Barr |
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cornopean
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| chevydriver1123 wrote: | | Typical of you corno, defending a theocratic fascist, Dobson and his ilk would turn the US into a Christian version of Iran. |
on what do you base this? has Dobson ever said anything that might lead you to believe this?
All I know is that Dobson is quite vocal on political issues and nothing he has ever said made me think he was a theocrat. your mythology has no basis in reality, sir.
| Quote: | | Dobson and his ilk have no problem trampling on human rights if it goes along with his interpretation of the Bible, Dobson is scum and needs to hurry up and die. And if you must know Im voting for Bob Barr |
proof?? What has Dobson said? your wild claims and generalizations are good fodder for fourth graders but they aren't going to have an effect with thinking people unless you can show us some evidence. |
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Toxic
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Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1544
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Right Wing Christian Fascist Nut job slams Left Wing Soc |
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| Quote: | | All true altho again....so many fundamentalist Christians are already out of the public school system that most don't care a rat's behind for what the public schools do. |
That's absolute bullshit. Creationism vs. evolution is the hottest debate subject in America today. If they didn't care, why did Fundies just release the movie EXPELLED, which is all about this very topic?
| Quote: | | good for them. if you want to change a curriculum, this is how you do it in a free country. good for them. of course, most fundies don't even care about public education so they don't even try to influence it anymore. |
lol, absolutely, good for them. Why on earth would education be about anything but an adult's personal agenda? |
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cornopean
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Right Wing Christian Fascist Nut job slams Left Wing Soc |
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| Toxic wrote: | | That's absolute bullshit. Creationism vs. evolution is the hottest debate subject in America today. If they didn't care, why did Fundies just release the movie EXPELLED, which is all about this very topic? |
I was talking about public policy. no fundy, including myself, wants to force any school to teach anything. Some fundies want teachers to at least be free to teach the controversy that surrounds evolution and intelligent design. There is no coercion here. In fact, the coercion is coming from the left which is trying to OUTLAW the teaching of design.
Of course, if we fundies were given our way, this would be a moot issue since the public money would be given to parents not schools and schools could teach whatever they very well wanted. |
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Toxic
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: Right Wing Christian Fascist Nut job slams Left Wing Soc |
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| Quote: | | I was talking about public policy. no fundy, including myself, wants to force any school to teach anything. |
You can speak for yourself, but you can't say "no fundy". That's simply not true. I can give you tons of examples of fundamentalist-dominated school boards requiring the teaching of creationism alongside evolution. In fact, this story was just on richarddawkins.net. http://richarddawkins.net/article,2752,n,n
| Quote: | | Some fundies want teachers to at least be free to teach the controversy that surrounds evolution and intelligent design. There is no coercion here. In fact, the coercion is coming from the left which is trying to OUTLAW the teaching of design. |
You're welcome to teach your children design. It's a story with no evidence, however, so it has no place in the place where we educate our children.
Nice try with the coercion bit though. It's always the left coercing the right, isn't it? Those damned truth-loving liberals and their science-based methods!
| Quote: | | Of course, if we fundies were given our way, this would be a moot issue since the public money would be given to parents not schools and schools could teach whatever they very well wanted. |
Thank goodness we don't then. We need our children to learn science if we want to continue competing, not religious bullshit. |
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cornopean
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Right Wing Christian Fascist Nut job slams Left Wing Soc |
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| Quote: | | You can speak for yourself, but you can't say "no fundy". That's simply not true. I can give you tons of examples of fundamentalist-dominated school boards requiring the teaching of creationism alongside evolution. In fact, this story was just on richarddawkins.net. http://richarddawkins.net/article,2752,n,n |
first, I deny that teaching design is teaching creationism. there is nothing religious about intelligent design.
second, I think the school board should be allowed to run their school in whatever way they want. Here we have libs telling (read forcing) a schoolboard to do as they think is fitting. That is govt coercion. It is the polar opposite of the intention of the 1st amendment.
I always find it interesting that Thomas Jefferson said that there was to be a wall of separation between church and state in order to assure religious organizations that he would never interfere in their affairs. Now we have the govt using the establishment clause to limit the expression of religion. We've come full circle.
| Quote: | | Thank goodness we don't then. We need our children to learn science if we want to continue competing, not religious bullshit. |
I guess I just find it fascinating that you don't even realize how the above statement is exactly what I am fighting against. The problem here is that we have one group of annointed prophets that think they have the wisdom and knowledge to tell the rest of us rednecks what we are supposed to do. They are the parents; we are the children. I can't believe how far liberalism has fallen from what it once was. |
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Toxic
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Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1544
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:45 am Post subject: Re: Right Wing Christian Fascist Nut job slams Left Wing Soc |
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| Quote: | | first, I deny that teaching design is teaching creationism. there is nothing religious about intelligent design. |
It's absolutely religious. It's a nickname for creationism that religious nuts have used to try to convince people that it's a secular study. Intelligent design requires belief in a deity, and it's therefore religious.
| Quote: | | second, I think the school board should be allowed to run their school in whatever way they want. |
Then you're an idiot and don't care if your child is taught absolute bullshit or actual information.
| Quote: | | Here we have libs telling (read forcing) a schoolboard to do as they think is fitting. That is govt coercion. It is the polar opposite of the intention of the 1st amendment. |
The government mandating what is taught in ITS schools is government coercion and a violation of free speech? Imagine that.
| Quote: | | Now we have the govt using the establishment clause to limit the expression of religion. |
You can express your religion however you like. You can't use government money or government structures/institutions to do so, however. Tell me you don't actually want government getting involved in your religion.
| Quote: | | I guess I just find it fascinating that you don't even realize how the above statement is exactly what I am fighting against. |
So you're fighting against having an education system that teaches stories instead of science? Awesome. Welcome aboard.
| Quote: | | The problem here is that we have one group of annointed prophets that think they have the wisdom and knowledge to tell the rest of us rednecks what we are supposed to do. |
Oh right. So we'll ignore scientists, mathematicians, etc. and teach science and based on what "you rednecks" know. ROFL.
Also interesting that you said "us rednecks", as if this is all just a bunch of elite liberal intelligencia telling only redneck schools what to do. Last time I checked, liberals, urbanites, etc. send their children to the very same public schools that are subject to the very same mandates. corno's social warfare attempt = FAIL. |
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Timetheos
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:01 am Post subject: |
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Because Corno is misinformed, I'd thought I would document a fact or two and a logical conclusion:
| Quote: | | first, I deny that teaching design is teaching creationism. there is nothing religious about intelligent design. |
| Quote: | The Discovery Institute, following the policies outlined by Phillip E. Johnson, obfuscates its agenda. Opposed to the public statements to the contrary made by the Discovery Institute, Johnson has admitted that the goal of intelligent design movement is to cast creationism as a scientific concept:
| Quote: | Our strategy has been to change the subject a bit so that we can get the issue of intelligent design, which really means the reality of God, before the academic world and into the schools.[80]
This isn't really, and never has been a debate about science. It's about religion and philosophy.[81]
If we understand our own times, we will know that we should affirm the reality of God by challenging the domination of materialism and naturalism in the world of the mind. With the assistance of many friends I have developed a strategy for doing this....We call our strategy the 'wedge.'[82]
So the question is: "How to win?" That’s when I began to develop what you now see full-fledged in the "wedge" strategy: "Stick with the most important thing" —the mechanism and the building up of information. Get the Bible and the Book of Genesis out of the debate because you do not want to raise the so-called Bible-science dichotomy. Phrase the argument in such a way that you can get it heard in the secular academy and in a way that tends to unify the religious dissenters. That means concentrating on, "Do you need a Creator to do the creating, or can nature do it on its own?" and refusing to get sidetracked onto other issues, which people are always trying to do.[83]
– Phillip E. Johnson |
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- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teach_the_Controversy
You'll notice that it is referenced.
So Corno, if ID is going to be taught in schools, we must also teach about the Flying Spaghetti Monster (May you be touched by his noodly appendage! Aaarrrgghhhhh!). You can learn more about his grand and glorious design of the universe at http://www.venganza.org/.
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cornopean
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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You misunderstand Johnson. He is making the point that ultimately, the issue over creation comes down to religious and philosophical beliefs. The origin of the universe is not something that science can resolve. If your religion involves belief in some kind of higher power, then you are likely to believe in some kind of creation. If you are an atheist, then creation is not an option for explaining the origin of the universe. That is what Johnson is getting at with that comment.
But the fact is, there is no religion involved in the study of ID. ID is just asking whether certain structures could have been the result of random chance occurrences. They say "no". other scientists say "yes". it is just a scientific debate.
there is no reference for the following quote, so I don't accept it (yet).
| Quote: | | Our strategy has been to change the subject a bit so that we can get the issue of intelligent design, which really means the reality of God, before the academic world and into the schools. |
| Quote: | | So Corno, if ID is going to be taught in schools, we must also teach about the Flying Spaghetti Monster (May you be touched by his noodly appendage! |
well if a school board wanted to teach about the flying spaghetti monster, they should be allowed to do so.
But let's look at some facts here. The vast majority of our most respected scientists, mathematicians, philosophers, thinkers, etc. throughout history believed in creation by an intelligent designer (whether this was via evolution or something else). That entitles ID to a level of respect that should not be given to the flying spaghetti monster.
but the fundamental point at issue here is liberty and freedom. should local school boards control their schools or should federal bureaucracies. |
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joeyjock
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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With the crap that religion has brought down on our heads over the last ten years you're listening to the Leader of the American Taliban?
Haven't you had enough?
When they tell you what to do in the bedroom?
What to do when your daughter has been raped?
What you need to do in the classroom?
How to raise your children?
How to die?
People blew up buildings here because of the great big man in the sky
don't think that because he goes by a different name he's anything else but exactly the same |
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cornopean
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| joeyjock wrote: | | With the crap that religion has brought down on our heads over the last ten years you're listening to the Leader of the American Taliban? |
would you say that Dobson is the equivalent of the grand ayatollah of Iran?
| Quote: | Haven't you had enough?
When they tell you what to do in the bedroom? |
no law that cons want tells you what to do in your bedroom.
| Quote: | | What to do when your daughter has been raped? |
example?
| Quote: | | What you need to do in the classroom? |
the libs are the ones telling you what to do in your classroom. if cons had their way, schools would be private institutions with the govt having zero say in what was taught. the coercion here is coming from the left, not the right.
| Quote: | How to raise your children?
How to die? |
give some specifics so we can have a realistic conversation.
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People blew up buildings here because of the great big man in the sky
don't think that because he goes by a different name he's anything else but exactly the same |
Christianity teaches that murder and suicide are sin. Christians believe that a person must make up his own mind about religion. You will not get that from the Jihadists. |
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Toxic
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Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1544
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The origin of the universe is not something that science can resolve. |
Thank you for repeatedly proving how little you understand science. You're an idiot if you think that science can't possibly prove the origin of life. You're even more of an idiot if you take that belief and then say "welp, that must mean we should turn to a supreme being." Science has a lot of key theories based on quite a bit of evidence of where life came from, and how the universe began. This is in direct opposition to things based on no evidence at all, like God.
| Quote: | | If your religion involves belief in some kind of higher power, then you are likely to believe in some kind of creation. If you are an atheist, then creation is not an option for explaining the origin of the universe. |
But we aren't talking about atheism versus religion, we're talking about science versus religion. If you can provide even the slightest shred of scientific evidence that there is a god, you can begin making your case scientifically. You can't of course and that topic is therefore not scientific and won't be studied as science.
| Quote: | | But the fact is, there is no religion involved in the study of ID. ID is just asking whether certain structures could have been the result of random chance occurrences. |
No, ID is asking whether certain structures could have been the result of creation by a being. Intelligent Design doesn't mean "random occurrence", it means planned/designed occurrence, meaning a god or deity, which is religious.
| Quote: | | They say "no". other scientists say "yes". it is just a scientific debate. |
It's not a scientific debate. You can't provide any scientific evidence of a creator, and without any scientific evidence, you don't have science.
| Quote: | | well if a school board wanted to teach about the flying spaghetti monster, they should be allowed to do so. |
So we should teach our children anything that someone makes up and wants taught in their school? Great idea to turn our children into intellectual mush. Thank goodness you aren't a school administrator.
| Quote: | | The vast majority of our most respected scientists, mathematicians, philosophers, thinkers, etc. throughout history believed in creation by an intelligent designer (whether this was via evolution or something else). That entitles ID to a level of respect that should not be given to the flying spaghetti monster. |
Because people who had 0% of our modern scientific ability to rationalize/investigate this question believed in a God (again, based on no evidence at all) we should just go with God? No, sorry, that's not logical.
| Quote: | | but the fundamental point at issue here is liberty and freedom. |
Absolutely not. The fundamental issue here is between "teaching our children what's based on logic and reason, thus science" and "is our children learning". You have no right to take away a child's education simply because you're uneducated in certain aspects of life.
| Quote: | | should local school boards control their schools or should federal bureaucracies. |
Neither. Since they actually know what the hell they're talking about, experts should mandate the curriculum: scientists, mathematicians, biologists, physicists, linguists, etc.
| Quote: | | Christians believe that a person must make up his own mind about religion. |
I have met quite a few that do not believe this. |
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