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[quote="TrespassersW"]fellfire - okay, let's come at it from another angle. Let me try a hypothetical for fun. (Fun for me, at least.) Explorers find their way into a secluded corner of the Amazon rain forest where no one in recorded history has visited. They find there a field of flowers of amazing colors and variety, separate from the rest of the landscape. One group believes the field must be the result of intentional planting by some native culture in the distant past. Another group believes the field is just the result of random chance; conditions were simply right for the flowers to grow where and as they did. To the [i]believer[/i], the simple existence of the field is evidence that a knowing hand was at work in creating what they have found. It isn't that those who believe in God do so without evidence; it's that they do so without evidence that satisfies [i]your [/i]standard. (But of course, it doesn't need to. It only needs to satisfy theirs.) For my part, I don't know whether God exists or doesn't, but I like to think He does. For what it's worth, I'm not a big fan of people who try to push their belief or lack thereof on others. Believe if you like, or don't, and let others do their own thing. Buddha said that there are many paths up the mountain, and that they all reached to top sooner or later. Gandhi added to that, saying that while what Buddha said was true, it was also true that the man who circles the mountain trying to convince everyone else of the superiority of his chosen path has ceased ascending.[/quote]
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<style type="text/css"> <!-- td.forumtitle { background-color: #669900; color: #FFFFFF; font-size: 10px; font-family: sans-serif; } table.forumborder { border: solid; border-width: 1px; border-color: #555555; } td.mnu { background-color: #BFBFBF; height: 1px; } --> </style> <table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="100%" class="forumborder"> <tr> <td class="forumtitle" width="22%">Author</th> <td class="forumtitle">Message</th> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>sbgirly</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:53 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: dumb down America</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">This forum is a good example of the dumbing down of America. Sarah Palin is the Dumb-Down movement's anointed one. The rest of the sophisticated world is laughing at us all . They have good reason. It is a testament to Evolution that we are De-volving in America. The more religious we get, the dumber we get as a whole. We are now the most religious country in the world. Why? What happened? Why are we going backwards? Religious equals violence. Religious equals ignorance. Religious equals oppression. It equals everything that is bad, evil, and ruinous and always has. Go See "Religulous" now. Bill Maher is right. There is a huge percentage of mostly silent non-religious intellect here in this country. We could make a difference. Maybe we could get these people out of our faces if we spoke up. We are rational. We are evolved. We are smart, peaceful and reasonable and we make SENSE. What we don't do is stand up, Stand out, Speak out. And we should. We need to Stop the nuts from trying to run our country and run our world. We need to put a stop to it now. Enough is enough. We need to stop being afraid of insulting someone if we say we don't want "your" god in "our" face anymore. Put God back where "he" belongs. In YOUR church, YOUR house, over YOUR bed, and out of OUR faces, OUR schools, OUR television awards shows and talk shows, OUR rear-view mirrors. Remember when God was an intimate thing in this country? Something to be shared with family, privately, not publicly? God is so overexposed that we are ready to vomit already at the sight of him/her/it. What happened to this country? We are de-volving alright. And this time, there's no where else to go to start over.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>imnotbncre8ive</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:15 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">As to whether a global flood occurred, you may find this illuminating. <br /> <br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjFeVwuJB7I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjFeVwuJB7I</a> <br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvprBLhJx_o" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvprBLhJx_o</a> <br /> <br />Why bother with just Flood? We might as well regress to several centuries ago and claim that the world is flat.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>imnotbncre8ive</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:10 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Did you know that the Bible says that until just before the flood it did not rain? There was a mist that rose from the ground. Some Christians believe that the globe was created with a layer of ice between the atmosphere and space that created a green house effect and made the whole world a temperate climate.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Did you know that Ron Hubbard told Scientologists that Xenu, dictator of the Galactic Confederacy 75 million years ago, brought billions of people to Earth in spacecraft eerily similar to DC-8 airliners. He then stacked them around volcanoes and detonated thermonuclear bombs. Why? Because his mother had butterfingers and dropped him a lot. He often complained of being harassed in online games like Counterstrike, and nobody wanted him on their chess teams. <br /> <br />There is even more scientific evidence to support this. We at least know exactly who wrote about this stuff: L. Ron Hubbard. I hope you see the light and undertake the journey to become an Operating Thetan.[/quote]</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>exton</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:26 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: you must have know I would say ......</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Vinces wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">If your a evolutionist carbon dating supports your theory of the earths age. </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />No, it doesn't. Carbon dating is only accurate to about 60,000 years. <br /> <br />Other kinds of radiometric dating are used to determine the age of the earth. <br /> <br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating#Modern_dating_techniques" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.....techniques</a> <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />If your a creationist it actually supports the Bible because the flood of Genesis and the climate and atmosphere before and after as described in the Bible would definately skew the results.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />If you're going to throw around the flood, then there's no point in discussing evidence at all; a global flood, of the sort described in the bible, is purely a miraculous event. It has no basis in sensible, physical reality. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br /> Did you know that the Bible says that until just before the flood it did not rain? There was a mist that rose from the ground. Some Christians believe that the globe was created with a layer of ice between the atmosphere and space that created a green house effect and made the whole world a temperate climate.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Same deal again. You can make up anything you want, but when you start doing that, the idea of basing your beliefs on "evidence" becomes irrelevent. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br /> There is alot of scientific evidence to support this.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />There isn't a single iota of physical evidence that supports that. <br />If you disagree, i'd like you to describe this evidence. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br /> Even the frozen water at the poles is evidence of the global flood of genesis. The spinning of the Earth gradually caused the flood to move towards the poles where it began to freeze.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />No, that doesn't make any sense at all. The distribution of water on the planet's surface has to do with the geography of the surface, not the planet's spin. The force due to spinning is very small relative to the force due to gravity. <br /> <br />And even then, the force due to spinning would cause things to move towards the equator, not the poles. But, like i said, that doesn't matter; that force is very small relative to the force due to gravity.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Toxic</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:18 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: you must have know I would say ......</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">If your a creationist it actually supports the Bible because the flood of Genesis and the climate and atmosphere before and after as described in the Bible would definately skew the results.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />How so? <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Did you know that the Bible says that until just before the flood it did not rain?</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I'm sure that's absolutely true. /sarcasm <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">There is alot of scientific evidence to support this.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I'd like to see just a sliver of it. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">The spinning of the Earth gradually caused the flood to move towards the poles where it began to freeze.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />It doesn't work that way due to gravity. Boats that float in the ocean for a very long time don't drift towards the poles, and neither do continents that have been around for quite a very long time. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">But I am assuming you do not believe the Genesis flood story?</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I don't believe it like I don't believe any other religion's Great Flood story, of which there are lots of them. I especially don't believe the Christian one because they load it up with the bogus idea of putting two of each on an ark.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Vinces</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:27 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: you must have know I would say ......</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">If your a evolutionist carbon dating supports your theory of the earths age. <br /> <br />If your a creationist it actually supports the Bible because the flood of Genesis and the climate and atmosphere before and after as described in the Bible would definately skew the results. Did you know that the Bible says that until just before the flood it did not rain? There was a mist that rose from the ground. Some Christians believe that the globe was created with a layer of ice between the atmosphere and space that created a green house effect and made the whole world a temperate climate. There is alot of scientific evidence to support this. Even the frozen water at the poles is evidence of the global flood of genesis. The spinning of the Earth gradually caused the flood to move towards the poles where it began to freeze. <br /> <br />But I am assuming you do not believe the Genesis flood story?</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>TrespassersW</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:36 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Or......</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Anonymous wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">It's answering the question posed to creationists in the title of the thread. Maybe not bluntly enough. <br /> <br />How bout this, because the easiest ones to find were found before there was a record kept of what layer they were found in. I know the Chinese revered dino bones and used them through the millenia believing they had special qualities. They could have been found above ground for all we know. <br /> <br />I mean Evolutionists are the ones saying dino bones have been around for millions and millions of years. Are they also going to base a conclusion on a sample of discoveries made during .0000001 % of that amount of time? Not to mention the fact that if there were bones closer to the surface or on the surface they would be more likely to have been dug up or found long ago??? C'mon guys, bring a real challenge.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Okay, here's one... <br /> <br />Can you cite for me any "dino bone" known to exist where carbon dating (or other scientific method of estimating its age) showed the bone to be much less old than evolutionists/conventional theories suggest such bones should/must be? <br /> <br />Thanks in advance.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:19 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Or......</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">It's answering the question posed to creationists in the title of the thread. Maybe not bluntly enough. <br /> <br />How bout this, because the easiest ones to find were found before there was a record kept of what layer they were found in. I know the Chinese revered dino bones and used them through the millenia believing they had special qualities. They could have been found above ground for all we know. <br /> <br />I mean Evolutionists are the ones saying dino bones have been around for millions and millions of years. Are they also going to base a conclusion on a sample of discoveries made during .0000001 % of that amount of time? Not to mention the fact that if there were bones closer to the surface or on the surface they would be more likely to have been dug up or found long ago??? C'mon guys, bring a real challenge.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Toxic</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:31 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">This seems to be implying that it's required that we know what layer every single bone has ever come from in order to make an argument against creationism, which simply is not true.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Vinces</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:12 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Your good</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">I'm not an expert but I would ask how could you possibly know what layer every single dinosaur bone ever unearthed came from? I would agree that in the last 200 years yes there is probably a good record of what layer of earth a dinosaur bone was found in (and there have been plenty of surprises dismissed by science as bones reburried) but I would wager that there have been at least as many unrecorded discoveries in all the years before that. It's amazing that you somehow know as a matter of fact what layer they did or did not come from. Your good. <br /> <br />Shoot you'd probably even say that Job must have dug pretty deep to find his brontosaurus tail bones when he lied and described a living creature with a tail like a cedar tree some 4000 years ago.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>joeyjock</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:11 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Religion has based itself on lack of knowledge and misinformation for all of eternity <br />What was the name of the tree that Eve took the apple from? <br />That wasn't a mistake...the powers that be in the Church (and I'm talking about the Christian Church right now...but it's true in every religion) <br />weaved a tale of quasi-believability taking bits and pieces of different religions so that people would feel comfortable converting <br />This was done on meetings of the Church heirarchy in the 3rd century <br />look at the myth of St Nicholas <br />the Myth of Easter <br />the Birth of Christ <br />The resurrection <br />ALL OF THEM .... were taken directly from the pagan religions of the time <br /> <br />Why do you think the Church burned people in the Middle Ages for stating that the earth wasn't the center of the universe? <br />Why was Galileo imprisoned for the last years of his life? <br /> <br />The Church is a propaganda machine....and blind faith is its weaponry</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>fellfire</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:16 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>TrespassersW wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> At the end of the day--for me--it's about having a philosophy, or religion, or moral code, or whatever you want to call it that makes you happy and inclined to try to treat those around you well. If you have that, I don't care what you call it or where you found it. If you don't, well, that's also your choice, but I probably don't want to know you. (And here I'm using the general "you," not you personally!)</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I appreciate this position and, truthfully, I'm not surprised that it is your position. IMO, it is not the enlightened religious population that are attacking evolution as either "a faith as much as ours" or as "the doom of mankind and civilization as we know it", it is the uninformed and zealots. <br /> <br />I suspect that most religious people answer with "I do not believe in evolution" only because they don't know anything about evolution. A few, I suspect, are mislead by creationist and ID information, but I think the majority simply don't see it as impacting their lives sufficiently to spend many neural firings thinking about it.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>TrespassersW</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:49 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>exton wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>TrespassersW wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Theoretically a handful of stones could roll down a hill and land in a perfectly straight line, but if I see a row of stones in a perfectly straight line I assume someone arranged them that way.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />And that assumption, given the information you've stated, is unreasonable. There is no evidence with which to conclude that. It is exactly an <span style="font-style: italic">assumption</span>, and nothing more.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Then I guess it's good that I used the word "assume." <img src="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif" alt="Wink" border="0" /> <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>exton wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">In much the same way, some perfectly reasonable, highly intelligent people look at the complexity of the world around us and assume that some hand was at play in its creation.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />That's worse than a misrecognition of evidence - it's a logical fallacy. It's begging the question.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Yes, it most certainly is. <br /> <br />You make a perfectly valid point. My point was an effort to describe their thinking, not an effort to claim it constituted a logical argument. <br /> <br />My personal belief that there is a God is only that; my personal belief. I do not claim to "know" that there is a God; I only know that I have an innate inclination to believe it is so, and that my life is enriched by that belief. I do not expect others to believe what I believe. (In fact, I'm quite sure there isn't a single person in the church I attend who would agree with me if I tried to describe my personal view of the world.) <br /> <br />At the end of the day--for me--it's about having a philosophy, or religion, or moral code, or whatever you want to call it that makes you happy and inclined to try to treat those around you well. If you have that, I don't care what you call it or where you found it. If you don't, well, that's also your choice, but I probably don't want to know you. (And here I'm using the general "you," not you personally!)</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>exton</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:20 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>TrespassersW wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Theoretically a handful of stones could roll down a hill and land in a perfectly straight line, but if I see a row of stones in a perfectly straight line I assume someone arranged them that way.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />And that assumption, given the information you've stated, is unreasonable. There is no evidence with which to conclude that. It is exactly an <span style="font-style: italic">assumption</span>, and nothing more. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br /> In much the same way, some perfectly reasonable, highly intelligent people look at the complexity of the world around us and assume that some hand was at play in its creation.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />That's worse than a misrecognition of evidence - it's a logical fallacy. It's begging the question. <br /> <br />They say, "look, it's so complex - it must be a product of a mind. So, someone must have made the universe." <br /> <br />The implicit assumption is that a mind is necessary to create order or complexity. But that jut begs the question: is it? <br /> <br />The belief you describe is not a conclusion based on evidence - it's an unsubstantiated assumption based on a very limited understanding of their world and their failure to understand their own biases. <br /> <br />It's an extremely simplistic line of thought that stretches back to the stone age: "Hmm. That stuff has order. What else causes order? Oh - people do! I don't know of anything else that does. So, someone must have made that." <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br /> Their evidence for the existence of God is the incredible world they believe He created.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Like i said: that isn't evidence of any such thing. It's a failure in thinking.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>TrespassersW</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:02 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">fellfire - Always nice to find a point of agreement, and even more enjoyable to discuss the rest with courtesy. <img src="images/smiles/icon_cool.gif" alt="Cool" border="0" /> <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>fellfire wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">...the existence of the field is not evidence for either believe - it is merely a data point at best...</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Maybe I didn't state it well enough; it isn't the simple <span style="font-style: italic">existence </span>of the field, but the <span style="font-style: italic">nature </span>of it... again, this is a hypothetical, but I think you know what I mean. <br /> <br />Theoretically a handful of stones could roll down a hill and land in a perfectly straight line, but if I see a row of stones in a perfectly straight line I assume someone arranged them that way. In much the same way, some perfectly reasonable, highly intelligent people look at the complexity of the world around us and assume that some hand was at play in its creation. Their evidence for the existence of God is the incredible world they believe He created.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> </table>
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