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[quote="phoneguytim"]by the way, the evidence that the sumerians used glue 7000 years ago is based on what, exactly. i'd like to read up on that--could you post a link please?[/quote]
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<style type="text/css"> <!-- td.forumtitle { background-color: #669900; color: #FFFFFF; font-size: 10px; font-family: sans-serif; } table.forumborder { border: solid; border-width: 1px; border-color: #555555; } td.mnu { background-color: #BFBFBF; height: 1px; } --> </style> <table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="100%" class="forumborder"> <tr> <td class="forumtitle" width="22%">Author</th> <td class="forumtitle">Message</th> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>imnotbncre8ive</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:56 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">If you worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster (may he bless you with his noodly appendage), you will have a better heaven than that of Christians. We have a beer volcano and stripper factory. HELL YAH</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>exton</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:41 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Vinces wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Wouldn't you at least hope for an after life?</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />No. That makes as much sense to me as "hoping" for a pet unicorn; it's so patently unreasonable that there's no point in wasting thought or emotion on it.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Toxic</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:49 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">No. I don't hope for nonsense just because it'd be nice. Do you hope there's really a tooth fairy so you can continue to get money for any teeth you might lose even after you've grown up and moved out from your parent's place? Or a Santa, and so on?</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Vinces</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:07 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">I didn't say believe, I said vote or in other words hope. Wouldn't you at least hope for an after life?</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>exton</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:17 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Oh come on</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Anonymous wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> I would vote for afterlife vs no afterlife based on sheer optimism. Wouldn't you????</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />No. Optimism isn't a good reason to believe something.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Toxic</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:24 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Oh come on</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Sorry, not all evolutionists deny the possiblity of the existence of a Divine being or beings and or an afterlife.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I know that. Why do you think I made my last post? <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">I meant to address the ones that do deny an afterlife and yes I would vote for afterlife vs no afterlife based on sheer optimism. Wouldn't you????</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />No.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:30 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Oh come on</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">You scientists take the fun out of everything. <br /> <br />Yes I am making a generalization. Sorry, not all evolutionists deny the possiblity of the existence of a Divine being or beings and or an afterlife. <br /> <br />I meant to address the ones that do deny an afterlife and yes I would vote for afterlife vs no afterlife based on sheer optimism. Wouldn't you???? <br /> <br />I know alot of people actually do believe God is somehow connected with evolution. That's another topic I suppose.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Toxic</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:28 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">#2 is not necessarily correct. Just because evolution is correct and life didn't come from god doesn't automatically mean there couldn't be a god. Nonetheless, that's pretty silly reasoning to be a creationist if you're indeed being serious.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Vinces</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:11 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: IF</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">1.If creationsits are right we will all know the truth after we die. <br /> <br />2.If evolutionists are right we will all stop knowing anything when we die. <br /> <br />Just out of sheer optimism I am going to vote for #1</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>joeyjock</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:58 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Evolution Versus Creationism</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>exton wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>TurretGunner wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />No weaker than the evolution stuff. I have yet to see PROOF that one creature evolved from and particular other creature. When I see that I might believe some of it.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Well, before i put a lot of effort into it, do you understand what evolution is and how it works?</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />The problem IS.... is that no matter HOW much proof you give people like our esteemed turretgunner here <br />He and his minions will not believe it <br /> <br />Mainly because it goes perpendicularly against what he's been told in the Big man in the Sky School <br />We all know that evolution is the main driving force that runs the living engine that is here on earth <br />and it is readily seen here every day... <br />that is if your mind is open to it <br />The fossil record <br />carbon dating <br />geology... <br />DNA comparisons <br />morphology and classification <br />EVERYTHING is based on the fundamentals of an evolutionary process <br />NOW ... I can SAY... that Oden or Fairies or Jehovah or any mythological being is responisble but nothing NOTHING explains what Scientists have learned over the last centuries since the Enlightenment <br />.... And they didn't call it that for any other reason</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Toxic</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:21 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Evolution Versus Creationism</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Neither of them cn be proven by being reporoduced.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Uhh... isn't that part of how you scientifically prove something?</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>exton</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:18 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Evolution Versus Creationism</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>TurretGunner wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />No weaker than the evolution stuff. I have yet to see PROOF that one creature evolved from and particular other creature. When I see that I might believe some of it.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Well, before i put a lot of effort into it, do you understand what evolution is and how it works?</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>TurretGunner</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:10 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Evolution Versus Creationism</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>exton wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Your evangelical christian-fu is weak. You need practice.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />No weaker than the evolution stuff. I have yet to see PROOF that one creature evolved from and particular other creature. When I see that I might believe some of it. <br /> <br />The same goes for the strict creation story. <br /> <br />Neither of them cn be proven by being reporoduced.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:07 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Wow, lets take this apart .... <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Portland wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">God is neither Violent nor Cruel <br /> <br />For what he does you also could do. Would you consider yourself cruel then? <br /> <br /> He in fact, is Just and Fair. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">1. Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8 </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I have read this and agree on the action but you also take it out of context. <br />God Favors Abel, do you not favor your wife or girlfriend over others? </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />We aren't talking about a fallible person here, we are talking about God. Infallible, omniscient, omnipotent. Man was created in God's image, but that doesn't mean that God is flawed like man, does it? <br /> <br />You are claiming that God "plays favorites"; he likes some of his 'children' more then others. Alright, I'll take your word for it. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Portland wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">As for the context it says this <br /> <br />"But he did not look with favor on Cain and this offering, and Cain was very angry and downcast." Verse 4:5 Genesis <br /> <br />But if you look at the next two verses God looks upon Cain with favor and asks this. <br />"Yahweh asked Cain, 'Why are you angry and downcast? 4:6 if you are doing right, surely you ought to hold your head high! But if you are not doing right, Sin is crouching at the door hungry to get you. You can still master him.'4:7 <br /> <br />This does not sound like a Cruel God to me. A Cruel God would not have helped Cain after he did the murder either but he did.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Yep, God doesn't understand Cain's jealousy. Oh wait, God is omniscient - he knew EXACTLY why Cain was angry and downcast, he simply asked Cain to confirm it because God knew Cain's heart, God knew that Cain was jealous of God's favor for Abel. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Portland wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Look, today you drive me from the surface of the earth. I must hide from you, and be a restless wanderer on earth. Why, whoever comes across me will kill me! 4:14 'Very well, then,' Yahweh replied, "whoever kills Cain will suffer a sevenfold vengeance.' So Yahweh put a mark on Cain, so that no one coming across him would kill him. 4:15 <br /> <br />This sounds like Justice to me.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Maybe that is Justice, but, of course, God knew it would happen. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Portland wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">2. God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17 </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Again the quote is good but again it is out of context. <br /> <br />Yahweh saw that human wickedness was great on earth and that his heart contrived nothing but wicked schemes all day long. Genesis 6:5 And Yahweh regretted having made human beings on earth and was grieved at heart.6:6 And Yahweh said,'I shall rid the surface of the earth of the human beings whom I created--human and animal, the creeping things and the birds of heaven--for I regret having made them.'6:7 <br /> <br />So I ask you if you prick me do I not bleed. <br />And if, in fact, we are made in God's own image wouldn’t you say: if we sin against him does he not grieve? <br />Would it not be better to say that this was in fact justice? <br /> <br />For if he was really Cruel and Violent he would have killed us all and be done with us. He in fact saved one whole family.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Saving a whole family is good - if it is your family. What about all the babies God drowned? and the mothers that loved those babies? What about the young sons who were the pride and joy of young fathers? He drowned all of them. <br /> <br />Why did he drown them? because they did <span style="font-weight: bold">exactly what he knew they would do</span>. Seems rather cruel to me - you have an infant that you know is going to stick a fork into a light socket; do you stop the child or let them electrocute themselves "to learn a lesson". God chose the latter - he drowned all of humanity to teach Noah's family a lesson. Damn cruel sounding to me. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Portland wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />As for 3 <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">3. God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4 </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />In the beginning of Genesis God give Dominion over the whole earth to Man. <br />God said,'Let us make man in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves, and let them be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of the heaven, the cattle, all the wild animals and all the creatures that creep along the ground.' Genesis 1:26 <br /> <br />When man fell the whole of the earth fell with him! <br />For Jesus said "No servant is greater than his master" so it is with animals.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Explanation still doesn't refute that God is Cruel for making all of animal kinds future hinged on Man, particularly since he knew Man would fail him. If a psychopath tells you he will kill your children if you don't rob a bank for him - when you fail the task and the killer acts and murders your children, it still the killer who is cruel, not you for your failure. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Portland wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">5. God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10 </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />The sacrifice of the Pure Animals, Lambs, Doves ect. is a reference to the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God, Jesus. <br />The term sacrifice basically means "to give up something" For the Sins against God are many and only small part of the debt would be payed in doing so. *kinda like a house payment that never seems to go down lol*</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Yeah, that's cute, we chop animals in half to as a down payment. Damn bloody and particularly cruel, but then you aren't defending this demand from God either, now are you? Just dodging the subject. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Portland wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">6. Hagar conceives, making Sarai jealous. Abram tells Sarai to do to Hagar whatever she wants. "And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled." 16:6 </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />.... <br /> <br />This is the same Promise he gave to Abram and Sarai about there own child that was yet to be born. So he is Just. <br /> <br />Also Sarai and Hagar are jealous women if I am reading the text right. God acts Justly when neither of them acted fairly to each other. Because Sarai and Abram Sinned against God by not keeping to the promise he made them that they would have a child and not waiting upon it. He places a curse on them in regards to Ishmael. Making him the very bane of a quiet home. I would say God is very Just.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />You consider it Just for God to tell a man and woman "you will have children" and then, without further explanation, time goes by, lots and lots of time (over thirteen years, because after Sarai handed over Hagar, it was over ten years before Hagar conceived). When the man and woman <span style="font-style: italic">follow the customary traditions of their clan, which by the way, had been perfectly fine for the people to do for generations</span>, and conceive a child through the slave girl they are breaking their word to this Capricious, Cruel and Jealous God. <br /> <br />The logical analysis here is that they were doing <span style="font-weight: bold">exactly</span> what God knew they would do - God promised the child and waited for Sarai to hand over Hagar to Abram and for Abram to conceive on Hagar. God had no intention of allowing Sarai to conceive. The Cruelty here is the 'curse'. They were doing what God knew they would do. <br /> <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Portland wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">7. Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:7-8 </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Again this is not God's doing but Man, and his Sin. <br />And all men are sinful the "Just" and "Righteous" are no exception. <br /> <br />But I ask you what did the Angles do? In Genesis 19:11 they blind all those outside the house for Sinning so. Again Justice is done.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Here I do agree with you. The Angels blinded the men of Sodom, rescuing Lot and his family. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Portland wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Now remember what the Angel of the Lord said? “Do not look back.” Let us bring it into context with this new information. I am sure all of us at one point or another has had a really bad relationship of some kind. And how people tell us do not go back to them, you will only get hurt. That was God’s warning to Lot and his family, only the wife felt a need to go back despite God’s warning. And she was destroyed because of it.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />That does not make it Just or any less Cruel. If a man pointed a gun at you and said "run, do not look back" and, while running away you looked back and he shot you, no one in his right mind would call that Just. However, the bible teaches us that God doing it is Just. <br /> <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Portland wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />In the next few verses God gives many blessings to Abraham and his son Isaac for their faithfulness to him and for fearing him. Even though God asked something very difficult of Abraham and Isaac and was a close call as you say. God in his sense of Justice gave them many things in return. <br />But that is not the end, you see to fully understand this chapter you must understand the rite of sacrifice that was to God. It was a blood convenient with God which Abraham had made. As penitence for his Sins he would give up one of the pure of his herd to God. And the sacrifice of one would help to the forgiveness of all sins up until this point; however a new sacrifice would have to be made again and again because it was never enough for the complete sins of life. Now I am sure it must be a curious thing that a God would ask for the only heir to Abraham to die instead of a pure of his herd, however a normal human is hardly pure and it would not have worked. But this story is really a foreshadowing of the coming Jesus. God’s only son who he would send as the pure human sacrifice, it was the sacrifice to end all sacrifices God himself killed by man for man’s sins forever. That is the true meaning behind this story. <br />As I said before to sacrifice means “to give up”. So no matter what man as a race of people gives up be it wealth, power, sex, speaking, eating. It will never be enough, because no matter how great our sacrifice is it is insignificant to the greatness of the sins on humanity. But to give up God in the flesh in an act of unselfishness or hatred for others, is the greatest sacrifice humanity could give for he was the one perfect being in the whole of the earth. By doing so it ended forever the rite of sacrifice, for the blood covenant was completed. In his mercy no more sacrifices are needed to have forgiveness.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />This is probably the most pathetic excuse I have read for cruelty - God said "kill your son for me .... No! wait, I was just kidding. Just seeing if you would do it." You call that Just? Do you have children? and if so, what would you think if someone pulled a prank like this on you? How much would it take to "buy your love back"? <br /> <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Portland wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">16. "And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." What did Er do to elicit God's wrath? The Bible doesn't say. Maybe he picked up some sticks on Saturday. 38:7</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />You are correct my bible does not say either. But judging from what I showed you in the past about God's Justice I would suspect it was wicked to warrant God's fury.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Your suspicion is as valid and joey's. You haven't demonstrated anything other then you condone the Cruelty that God displays. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">17. After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control. 38:8-10 </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />But Onan, knowing that the line would not count as his, spilt his seed on the ground every time he slept with his brother’s wife, to avoid providing offspring for his brother.38:9 <br />This in fact was very shameful for it was custom and tradition. It was a welfare plan of its day in age, to protect the wife if her husband died. However Onan in his wickedness would not take care of his brother’s wife according to the laws of his people. The simple fact is that God loves culture and diversity, if he did not I do not doubt we would all be the same in everyway. And because God saw the wickedness of this brother to his own people and their culture which he defiled, God was filled with a righteous wrath.[/quote] <br /> <br />Abram, Sarai and Hagar already demonstrated that God didn't give a rat's ass about culture and custom, except when it comes to someone not listening to him. That sounds damn petulant. Abram had done right by his culture taking Hagar, but you said God was pissed that Abram didn't listen to him so he "cursed" him with through Ishmael. <br /> <br />But, because Onan cared for his brother and didn't want to impregnate his brother's wife (note, however, that Onan did take care of his brother's wife: "so whenever he lay with his brother's wife," so this was on going), you say that God now has a big thing for obeying culture. <br /> <br />So the "wickedness" here is not disobeying culture, it is disobeying God, because the bible shows that God doesn't always care about culture despite your claim. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Portland wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">18. After Judah pays Tamar for her services, he is told that she "played the harlot" and "is with child by whoredom." When Judah hears this, he says, "Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." 38:24 </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Thing is Judah did not know he slept with Tamar, but other then that what you say is true, but right after it says this. <br /> <br />... <br /> <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Here is a case where justice did prevail, but it had nothing to do with God, only the wiles of a smart woman. But, I admit the cruelty that was to be precipitated was not of God either. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Portland wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">19. Joseph interprets the baker's dream. He says that the pharaoh will cut off the baker's head, and hang his headless body on a tree for the birds to eat. 40:19 </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />... So I do not know how God is responsible the Pharaoh’s decision. </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Technically, joey stated that his post was "Cruelties and Violence in Genesis". I agree that this doesn't point to God's responsibility for this particular cruelty. <br /> <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Portland wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />The Old Testament as it is is incomplete. But through the New Testament all becomes complete. Through God’s Justice and Mercy and Blood of Jesus Christ we all saved. But Let me make it clear the Blood of Jesus is not enough to save you. You must believe as a whole the bible is where God’s treatment of his people, His Wrath, Justice, and Mercy are all told. You cannot believe because Jesus died for you and you only have to believe in him to receive eternal life. You must believe in the truth that is God and his promises of the future and past for eternal life with him to have any impact on you. Other wise he will cast you out in your eternal life to live in the sin of Sadom. In His Mercy He has given us all the chance to leave Sadom instead of just the one family. It is up to you to believe in what has come, and is to come. <br /> <br />The door is the there, the key is turned; only you can open.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Christians demand belief while denying facts. God is jealous, wrathful, vicious, as well as, merciful. God is capricious as is every god ever spoken about. The Judeo-Christian deity is no different then any other mono- or poly- theistic being man has ever told stories about. <br /> <br />All you have done here is shown you condone the viciousness of God because he is God; thus that makes it Just.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Toxic</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:18 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">God is neither just nor fair. To quote an age-old philosopher: <br /> <br />“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? <br />Then he is not omnipotent. <br />Is he able, but not willing? <br />Then he is malevolent. <br />Is he both able and willing? <br />Then whence cometh evil? <br />Is he neither able nor willing? <br />Then why call him God?”</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/alexisBlue/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> </table>
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