Nazi Germany religion

Home :: Search :: Memberlist :: Privacy Policy :: Donate!

Nazi Germany religion

Home // Atheism Versus Religion

Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next

What do you think the majority of the religious "nazi ideology" was?

	Christian/Catholic
	Atheist
	Pagan
	Spaggetti monsterian
	other

View Results

Oolon Colluphid
Not a Newbie

Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 133
Location: Florida

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:38 pm Post subject: Nazi Germany religion

Another user of this forum said this about the Germans and the nazi party.

"An overwhelimng amount of germans in WW2 beleived in the atheist nazi ideology"

I find it hard to believe that people can actually be twisting history in this manner.

What is the opinion of others on this subject?

exton
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:38 pm Post subject:

It's not a matter of opinion,it's a matter of fact. The nazis worked primarily with christian ideology.

There's some debate to be had over what hitler himself (as well as, perhaps, the other nazi leaders) believed, but one thing is quite certain: the german people were duped with christianity.

PeaceLoveandRockNRoll
Known Associate

Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 300
Location: Richmond, IN

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:49 am Post subject:

Correct, although he is recorded to have toyed with attempting to reinstate norse paganism as a matter of Aryan heritage.

grassrooter
Newbie

Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 7

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject:

exton wrote:

Christianity was the dominant religion (pretty much the only one) in Germany at the time, so Hitler had to try to justify himself from a Christian perspective.

However, Hitler was deeply distrustful of religion because much like Stalin he didn't like having another institution have power over "his" people. He pretty much forced the clergy to either join the party and preach according to his word or face persecution. Quite a few clergymen got sent to the camps after overzealous sermons.

Maybe even more importantly, Hitler's Hitlerjugend covertly and later overtly attempted to assimilate Catholic youth associations, and when this was not met with success members were bullied and beaten.

It was a special brand of "Hitler" Christianity that prevailed in Germany, and "the Fuehrer" was the quasi God to those who wanted to rise in the ranks of the party. Certainly, devotion to any religion was not well received.

An interesting side note; Hitler and his cronies did indeed attempt to revive pagan traditions, and it was popular to trace one's ancestry back to witches that had suffered at the hand of the church, to propagate the idea of the "hunted aryan".

JesusLopezViejo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 581
Location: Tri-State

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:03 pm Post subject:

If you read his book Mein Kaphf, you will see so many references to the Christian ideology...

To say he was atheist is to be uninformed.

Slowly but surely, history books are rewriting the Nazi history...making you believe they had nothing to do with Christianity...

"OMG, Hitler was a christian!?! OMG! Say it ain't so!"

exton
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:17 pm Post subject:

"Today Christians..Stand at the head of Germany...I pledge that I never wil tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity...We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit...We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality whihc has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past...(few) years." - Adolf Hitler

Oolon Colluphid
Not a Newbie

Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 133
Location: Florida

Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:23 am Post subject:

JesusLopezViejo wrote:

That's why we need to hit religion hard. Most people haven't even heard of Mein Kampf. I'd love to see a great comeback of "the age of reason". But I'm not sure it'll be in my life time... I'm definitely pushing as hard as I can though.

(Hitler signing an autograph to a Christian supporter)

Guido
Newbie

Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 33

Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject:

JesusLopezViejo wrote:

Ha ha ha! It makes sense Wink

grassrooter
Newbie

Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 7

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:03 am Post subject:

I'm German and I've done a lot of high-school and personal study into Hitler and WW2. Flame-baiting with buzzwords isn't really necessary, is it?

I'm also not Christian and have no interest in defending Christianity. If anything, I am a little too anti-Christian at times. I'm certainly no apologist. In fact, my personal opinion is that organized religion has offered the best way of disabling human conscience in order to commit acts of savagery. Christianity was made popular by Constantine so that he would have a reason for an aggressive war of expansion "in the name of God".

In the case of Hitler I think Christianity played a minor part. There are plenty of quotations (http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html)
showing Hitler's disdain for the spinelessness of the Christianity of the day. Of course he wouldn't include them in Mein Kampf. He intended the book to be read, and in staunchly Christian Germany that would've damaged his reputation severely. You'll have to show me the strong Christian influences in the running of Nazi Germany and the Nazi party (Things that Hitler introduced that were Christian, that weren't commonplace before he came to power). There was little Christian imagery, and the war against Jews was race-based, not faith-based.

Yes, Hitler tried to let his world view have a metaphysical dimension. Yes, he did not ban and close churches (though he did away with unruly clergy) like Stalin did. Yes, Hitler as a right-wing man was aligned with the church, whereas Stalin as a left-wing revolutionary was its bitter enemy. But his understanding of Christianity was nothing like the Christianity of the day. He sought to completely reinvent it to suit his purpose, and by doing that removed it far from mainstream Christianity.

Aside: I think the cooperation of much of the clergy and the pope is despicable, and their role in covering up atrocities is not to be overlooked.

Guido
Newbie

Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 33

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:54 pm Post subject:

grassrooter wrote:

You, are a legend. I believe your right here. What you have just written - I have heard before on documentaries... and from my dad. Razz

Oolon Colluphid
Not a Newbie

Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 133
Location: Florida

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:12 am Post subject:

grassrooter wrote:

I'm German and I've done a lot of high-school and personal study into Hitler and WW2. Flame-baiting with buzzwords isn't really necessary, is it?

I had to think about this for a minute.... After rereading the posts I figured this might have been intended for me.

No, that was not the intention of the thread and I never even thought of it that way.

I can't understand why you said this in your second post and not your first. Maybe this isn't directed at me.....I don't know... Question

I'm really concerned that this might be a growing belief. I checked sites on the internet after I read the opinion and I found quite a few places that hold to this thought. I'm just honestly curious about how many people think this. Judging by the results of the poll, it's not good. I could understand how people would vote other, but to vote straight atheist is just flat out against anything I've ever been taught. Where do people learn these things?

grassrooter wrote:

In the case of Hitler I think Christianity played a minor part. There are plenty of quotations (http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html)
showing Hitler's disdain for the spinelessness of the Christianity of the day. Of course he wouldn't include them in Mein Kampf. He intended the book to be read, and in staunchly Christian Germany that would've damaged his reputation severely. You'll have to show me the strong Christian influences in the running of Nazi Germany and the Nazi party (Things that Hitler introduced that were Christian, that weren't commonplace before he came to power). There was little Christian imagery, and the war against Jews was race-based, not faith-based.

I disagree. Christainity played major part in his popularity and support. There is no doubt that the Nazis were devotedly Christian, eager to inculcate Christian theism for future generations. Even the motto on the Nazi military belt buckle said "god with us". If the Nazi ideology was not in fact a Christian one (which I hold that it was), it was definitely not an atheist one.

Just for the sake of argument, I thought I'd insert some Christian imagery.

"When you see a cross, then think of the horrible murder by the Jews on Golgotha..."

I think the source you linked to is not a reliable source for an honest historical perspective. Not only does the site you referenced say plainly on it's home page that "this website is one way of sharing my conviction that the Christian faith is the most reasonable and realistic approach to life", which clearly makes it subject to biased views in the first place, but the Bormann's edited version of table talk, which the link quotes from, is a highly questionable source. The translations from this version in english do not match the other version from Henry Picker. From what I know about these two versions, Pickers is claimed to be closer to authenticity by eyewitness testimony. Furthermore, Hitler knew the notes were to being taken for use as an account of him for future publication. So if this is true, why would he say these things in the Table Talk notes, but stray from it when writing Mein Kamf?

grassrooter wrote:

Yes, Hitler tried to let his world view have a metaphysical dimension. Yes, he did not ban and close churches (though he did away with unruly clergy) like Stalin did. Yes, Hitler as a right-wing man was aligned with the church, whereas Stalin as a left-wing revolutionary was its bitter enemy. But his understanding of Christianity was nothing like the Christianity of the day. He sought to completely reinvent it to suit his purpose, and by doing that removed it far from mainstream Christianity.

The only reason he did away with unruly clergy was to silence any opposition to his political goals. It was definitley not because he was against the church, like you've correctly stated. While he may have had a purpose for changing the mainstream form of Christainty, that fact alone would not give hold to the claim he was not Christian.

grassrooter wrote:

Aside: I think the cooperation of much of the clergy and the pope is despicable, and their role in covering up atrocities is not to be overlooked.

If it weren't for the support of the catholic church, Hitler would never had been able to gain so much power in the first place. It is despicable and I don't think it should be forgivin for to this day.

grassrooter
Newbie

Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 7

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:46 am Post subject:

The "flamebaiting" wasn't directed at you, but at an earlier poster calling those with dissenting opinions ignorant. I don't have a problem with your post at all, it's rational and well written.

That the Nazi party used Christian imagery is clear. However, it seems to me that its use is peripheral to classic Nazi imagery. Hitler himself created the brand logo of Nazism, the Swastika. The Swastika has a long history, both in Eastern religion and Germanic pagan culture. Were Nazism a primarily Christian movement, I would have expected him to use a Christian motif, or at least a motif somehow linked to Christianity, such as the crusader's cross, instead of a Germanic symbol linked to paganism. Other primarily religious movements have done the same, such as the extremist muslim groups of today. Other examples are widespread, such as the use of runic germanic characters (eg SS insignia, also designed by Hitler). The greeting / battle cry "Heil Hitler" also shows that Hitler was far more concerned with a personality cult (like fellow dictators Mao and Stalin) than with God. He could've adapted one of the classics, "Gruess Gott" (Greet God) was (and still is, if a little old-fashioned) a common greeting of the day. A cry "For God" or "Holy cross" would've been more in tune with a religion-based regieme.

The site I linked to is webmastered by a Christian fellow, and the reasoning is probably to create doubt about Hitler's Christian credentials. On the other hand, most of the top google hits that quote Hitler's "Mein Kampf" quotes are sites like nobelief.com (www.evilbible.com and so on), an atheist site. The topic has been hijacked by people with agendas, as you've said.

Hitler's largest projects in my opinion were:

The Eugenics program, consisting of:
-Racial division by preventing intermarriage, a goal which the church neither actively opposed nor supported. Argumentation for was provided mainly by "scientific evidence" showing Aryians to be superior. Can't really think of a lot of biblical support for this.
-"Euthenasia", which the church has always actively opposed. Against all the common interpretations of Christianity I can think of.

The Lebensraum theory:
-The Aryan race is the "superior" race. To survive they require an expansion of their living space into the east where the "inferior" races take up valuable real estate. Not actively supported or opposed by the church, though it might have been interested in replacing Orthodox Christianity with Catholic Christianity.

It seems to me that we agree in most points, except that you would see Christianity as the main inspiration for Hitler's reign of terror and I think it was more of a two-bit accomplice of convenience.
I don't think the church inspired Hitler to his deeds; it is true that the church was very antisemitic during the medieval age it had largely disengaged from active antisemitism by the twentieth century.
I don't think Hitler's antisemitism was motivated by religious considerations. In the end Hitler was a racist. He had no respect whatsoever for "fellow Christians" when they opposed him or were of an "inferior race".
I do think that the church aided Hitler in his rise to power, both at the theological level (Pope's consent, lack of mainstream religious opposition) and at the political level (the support of the Christian party which led to his rise to power, although there is evidence that it was trying to contain Hitler, rather than bringing him to power). [/list]

Oolon Colluphid
Not a Newbie

Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 133
Location: Florida

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:59 am Post subject:

grassrooter wrote:

The "flamebaiting" wasn't directed at you, but at an earlier poster calling those with dissenting opinions ignorant. I don't have a problem with your post at all, it's rational and well written.

I see...
In defense of the poster though, I don't think the comment can be classified as flame-bating. If someone thinks that Hitler was an atheist, they should be called out as uninformed... The last comment that was made was surely sarcastic, but I thought it was funny nonetheless.

grassrooter wrote:

That the Nazi party used Christian imagery is clear. However, it seems to me that its use is peripheral to classic Nazi imagery. Hitler himself created the brand logo of Nazism, the Swastika. The Swastika has a long history, both in Eastern religion and Germanic pagan culture. Were Nazism a primarily Christian movement, I would have expected him to use a Christian motif, or at least a motif somehow linked to Christianity, such as the crusader's cross, instead of a Germanic symbol linked to paganism.

I think we need to seperate the nazi party as a whole from hitler the individual. This is where we are missing. Hitler knew damn well that he could mold a strong movement out of the religious beliefs of the German-Christian population. Hitler knew exactly what he was doing.

"when Church dignitaries make use of religious institutions or doctrines to injure their nation, we must never follow them on this path and fight with the same methods.
For the political leader the religious doctrines and institutions of his people trust always remain inviolable; or else he has no right to be in politics, but should become a reformer, if he has what it takes!
Especially in Germany any other attitude would lead to a catastrophe.
In my study of the Pan-German movement and its struggle against Rome, I then, and even more in the years to come, arrived at the following conviction: This movement's inadequate appreciation of the importance of the social problem cost it the truly militant mass of the people; its entry into parliament took away its mighty impetus and burdened it with all the weaknesses peculiar to this institution; the struggle against the Catholic Church made it impossible in numerous small and middle circles, and thus robbed it of countless of the best elements that the nation can call its own." ~(Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf-Vol.1, chap.3)

He was a reformer and it did not stop with politics. In fact, come to think of it, Hitler even called out Martain Luther in Mein Kamf to be one of the greatest reformers of all time. Luther definitely had anti-semitic discriminations on a religious level. I think that Hitler could have very well held some of these. I don't think you can dismiss any religious inspiration all together because he didn't use common Christian imagery. But I guess this is more of a personal opinion.

In addition, it's not uncommon for organized religion to take the iconic symbols of other religions in order to gain support or to reform a belief in order to call it their own...As an example, the "christmas tree" and the "easter bunny" were germanic pagan tradition until the Christians used it to their advantage, then claimed it as their own. The entire Christian religion is formed out of myths from past beliefs.

grassrooter wrote:

Other primarily religious movements have done the same, such as the extremist muslim groups of today.

Does this sentiment make my last comment redundant?...lol

grassrooter wrote:

It seems to me that we agree in most points, except that you would see Christianity as the main inspiration for Hitler's reign of terror and I think it was more of a two-bit accomplice of convenience.
I don't think the church inspired Hitler to his deeds; it is true that the church was very antisemitic during the medieval age it had largely disengaged from active antisemitism by the twentieth century.

Well, yes. I think we pretty much agree on everything except I think you may be underplaying the roll that the religion played in Hitlers over all success (if you can call it that). I don't think that Hitlers main inspiration was his belief in Christianity, but I do think that it played a roll in the entire picture. The nazi party was made up of mainly Christians and this surely carried into the "ideology" of the party.

Anyways, in the end, you cannot possibly be educated and come to the conclusion that Hitler and the Nazi party had an "atheist ideology".

I think exton said it best:

"It's not a matter of opinion,it's a matter of fact. The nazis worked primarily with christian ideology.

There's some debate to be had over what hitler himself (as well as, perhaps, the other nazi leaders) believed, but one thing is quite certain: the german people were duped with christianity."

grassrooter
Newbie

Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 7

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I do think Hitler was effectively atheist, and I don't like being called uninformed. You say that we must seperate Hitler the person from the Nazi movement. Very true, and there were many true Christians in the Nazi party. I think Hitler was not one of them. We'll never know because we can't ask Hitler or read his mind, but quotes from "Mein Kampf" and his church attendance hardly prove anything. He certainly didn't put as much emphasis as Bush does on his "prayer meetings" before important sessions etc. People often portray Hitler as a fool who got lucky and stumbled into power, but I don't believe that either. He was a crafty bastard and he knew there was nothing to gain and much to lose by alienating the majority of the German public.

Quote:

In addition, it's not uncommon for organized religion to take the iconic symbols of other religions in order to gain support or to reform a belief in order to call it their own...As an example, the "christmas tree" and the "easter bunny" were germanic pagan tradition until the Christians used it to their advantage, then claimed it as their own. The entire Christian religion is formed out of myths from past beliefs.

That's a bit of a stretch, taking over an existing festival which was popular at the time makes perfect sense. Hitler revived German folklore, not merely for some mass-appeasing celebrations but to provide the imagery for the Nazi party.

By this:

Quote:

Other primarily religious movements have done the same, such as the extremist muslim groups of today."

I meant that they use religious images and language of Islam. They shout "Allah Ackbar" (sp?) and continously refer to their mission of "Jihad". Their color is green, associated with Islam. That's a clear connection between their religion and their motivation for their mission. (I have no problems with Islam, it's just a fitting example in today's context.)

I think that in many ways trying to shift most of the blame to religion is misleading and dangerous. I strongly believe that it was nationalism, which goes hand in hand with racism, xenophobia and faschism, that was the root cause for Hitler's rise.
Yet it's that same nationalism which in many places is applauded as "patriotism" and is regaining popularity in many places today.

I think it's a misreading of the public mood in Germany in the post-war 1918-1933 period to think that religion played a dominant part in politics. In the Kaiserreich, Germans had been brought up with a mixture of Bismark's political realism and the Kaiser's romantic ideals of valor, honor and bravery. The "Dolchstoss Legende" ("Daggerstab / Backstab legend") told of how social democrat forces had undermined the war effort and caused Germany to capitulate when it was in fact winning the war.
The Versaille treaty caused long-term economic hardship, as well as cementing the shame many Germans felt. People wore armbands to show their support for communism / faschism. There were pitched street battles in which many people were killed. The "Reichstagsbrant" which was used as an excuse for marshal law to come into effect, was blamed on a communist. The main forces causing the conflict which Hitler so succesfully exploited was secular, the ideologies of the left against the ideologies of the right. The church is naturally conservative so it allied itself with Hitler. I don't see how that justifies the claim that Christianity brought Hitler to power. There were many different groups that allied themselves with Hitler that were very important; the military for one; teachers, which were largely conservative, for another; and of course industrialists, who provided the funding for Hitler's election campaign and turned a little known party into a political powerhouse.

Spider Jerusalem
Not a Newbie

Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 73

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:08 pm Post subject:

Nazi used Christianity as a means of gaining support, but wholly National Socialism was securalist. Because it was socialism.

God took a backseat to the state. In the end people endup either worshipping men or gods. And even if immaginary, I'd rather serve God. Because God is supirior (in theory). Where as goverment is just composed of men like me.

Hitler based alot of his dogma on Nietzche. A German philosopher who had a very bleak Darwin like view on life. Sortof a Christian who lost all faith and hope.

Athiesm wasn't as strong as now, so this was the closest thing to it. And look what happens when you give securalists a bit of power. I don't think all athiests are evil meglomaniacs. But they're out there. And their more dangerous then religious terrorists because of the fact they put themself above thier fellow man. They don't want you to serve God, they want to be God.

	LVC Home // Atheism Versus Religion	All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next
Page 1 of 3

Political Blogs - BlogCatalog Blog Directory