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cornopean
Forum Elder
Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3534
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 Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: Is Obama really a leftist? or is he flip flopping like Kerry |
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I am told that Barack is now wearing a flag pin even tho he refused to do so during the primaries.
now this...
Last week, when the Supreme Court declared unconstitutional the District of Columbia's ban on handguns, Obama immediately declared that he agreed with the decision. This is after his campaign explicitly told the Chicago Tribune last November that he believes the D.C. gun ban is constitutional.
Obama has officially flipped on the following issues:
NAFTA,
campaign finance reform,
warrantless wiretaps,
flag pins,
gun control.
I read recently that he also wants to expand Bush's faith based programs. interesting.
Now Obama is saying things like this:
Yesterday, Obama said that his "original position" on withdrawal has always been that "we've got to make sure that our troops are safe and that Iraq is stable."
That sounds like.....(gasp) Bush!
Hey lefties...are you sure Obama is your man? |
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cornopean
Forum Elder
Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3534
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Is Obama really a leftist? or is he flip flopping like K |
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Ok...here is Obama in the primaries:
"To be clear: Barack will support a filibuster of any bill that includes retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies." -- Obama spokesman Bill Burton, Oct. 24, 2007
Obama now says he'll vote in favor of the new FISA bill that gives the telecom companies blanket immunity for post-Sept. 11 eavesdropping.
I don't know lefties....this isn't looking to good for you. Obama beginning to tilt right?  |
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Toxic
Forum Elder
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Is Obama really a leftist? or is he flip flopping like K |
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| No, he isn't. Obama is the kind of person where you have to actually listen to what he says if he changes his opinion on a subject. |
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cornopean
Forum Elder
Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3534
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: Is Obama really a leftist? or is he flip flopping like K |
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| Toxic wrote: | | No, he isn't. Obama is the kind of person where you have to actually listen to what he says if he changes his opinion on a subject. |
so...I take it you find his "changes" here beneficial? He changes more towards what Bush advocates and you are cheering? interesting. |
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Toxic
Forum Elder
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Is Obama really a leftist? or is he flip flopping like K |
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| Quote: | | so...I take it you find his "changes" here beneficial? |
I don't think they're all that useful, but I'm not one of those that has to agree 100% with everything a presidential candidate thinks to vote for him. He has his reasons for changing his opinion, and he's made those reasons quite clear. Regardless, he could change everything in his campaign to match John McCain exactly except for universal health care and I'd still vote for him. That's my biggest issue.
| Quote: | | He changes more towards what Bush advocates |
Hardly. Watching someone move from left to center-left and claiming he's moving towards Bush is like claiming that someone moving from right to center-right or moderate is moving towards Stalin. |
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cornopean
Forum Elder
Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3534
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Is Obama really a leftist? or is he flip flopping like K |
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| Toxic wrote: | | Quote: | | so...I take it you find his "changes" here beneficial? |
I don't think they're all that useful, but I'm not one of those that has to agree 100% with everything a presidential candidate thinks to vote for him. He has his reasons for changing his opinion, and he's made those reasons quite clear. Regardless, he could change everything in his campaign to match John McCain exactly except for universal health care and I'd still vote for him. That's my biggest issue.
| Quote: | | He changes more towards what Bush advocates |
Hardly. Watching someone move from left to center-left and claiming he's moving towards Bush is like claiming that someone moving from right to center-right or moderate is moving towards Stalin. |
fair enough |
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cornopean
Forum Elder
Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3534
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:42 am Post subject: Re: Is Obama really a leftist? or is he flip flopping like K |
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Here is a leftist columnist lamenting Obama's lurch:
But Senator Obama is not just tacking gently toward the center. He’s lurching right when it suits him, and he’s zigging with the kind of reckless abandon that’s guaranteed to cause disillusion, if not whiplash.
So there he was in Zanesville, Ohio, pandering to evangelicals by promising not just to maintain the Bush program of investing taxpayer dollars in religious-based initiatives, but to expand it. Separation of church and state? Forget about it.
And there he was, in the midst of an election campaign in which the makeup of the Supreme Court is as important as it has ever been, agreeing with Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas that the death penalty could be imposed for crimes other than murder. What was the man thinking?
Thankfully, a majority on the court left the barbaric Scalia-Thomas-Obama (and John McCain) reasoning behind and held that capital punishment would apply only to homicides.
“What’s he doing?” is the most common question heard recently from Obama supporters.
For one thing, he’s taking his base for granted, apparently believing that such stalwart supporters as blacks, progressives and pumped-up younger voters will be with him no matter what. A taste of the backlash this can produce erupted on the candidate’s own Web site.
Thousands of Obama supporters flooded the site with protests over his decision to support an electronic surveillance bill that gives retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies that participated in the Bush administration’s warrantless wiretapping program. The senator had previously promised to filibuster the bill if it contained the immunity clause.
There has been a reluctance among blacks to openly criticize Senator Obama, the first black candidate with a real shot at the presidency. But behind the scenes, there is discontent among African-Americans, as well, over Mr. Obama’s move away from progressive issues, including his support of the Supreme Court’s decision affirming the constitutional right of individuals to bear arms.
There’s even concern that he’s doing the Obama two-step on the issue that has been the cornerstone of his campaign: his opposition to the war in Iraq. But the senator denied that any significant change should be inferred from his comment that he would “continue to refine” his policy on the war.
Mr. Obama is betting that in the long run none of this will matter, that the most important thing is winning the White House, that his staunchest supporters (horrified at the very idea of a President McCain) will be there when he needs them.
He seems to believe that his shifts and twists and clever panders — as opposed to bold, principled leadership on important matters — will entice large numbers of independent and conservative voters to climb off the fence and run into his yard.
Maybe. But that’s a very dangerous game for a man who first turned voters on by presenting himself as someone who was different, who wouldn’t engage in the terminal emptiness of politics as usual.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07.....ref=slogin |
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chevydriver1123
Veteran
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 968
Location: New York
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| Im very close in taking the Flip Flopping award from Romney and giving it to Obama |
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Timetheos
Known Associate
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 432
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:35 am Post subject: |
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McCain still has him beat.
Not only do you have this
http://www.thecarpetbaggerrepo.....15924.html
| Quote: | * McCain supported the drilling moratorium; now he’s against it.
* McCain strongly opposes a windfall-tax on oil company profits. Three weeks earlier, he was perfectly comfortable with the idea.
* McCain thought Bush’s warrantless-wiretap program circumvented the law; now he believes the opposite.
* McCain defended “privatizing” Social Security. Now he says he’s against privatization (though he actually still supports it.)
Wait, I’m not done with the last two weeks yet….
* McCain wanted to change the Republican Party platform to protect abortion rights in cases of rape and incest. Now he doesn’t.
* McCain thought the estate tax was perfectly fair. Now he believes the opposite.
* He opposed indefinite detention of terrorist suspects. When the Supreme Court reached the same conclusion, he called it “one of the worst decisions in the history of this country.”
* McCain said he would “not impose a litmus test on any nominee.” He used to promise the opposite.
And these come after these other reversals from April and May:
* McCain believes the telecoms should be forced to explain their role in the administration’s warrantless surveillance program as a condition for retroactive immunity. He used to believe the opposite.
* McCain supported storing spent nuclear fuel at Yucca Mountain in Nevada. Now he believes the opposite.
* McCain supported moving “towards normalization of relations” with Cuba. Now he believes the opposite.
* McCain believed the U.S. should engage in diplomacy with Hamas. Now he believes the opposite.
* McCain believed the U.S. should engage in diplomacy with Syria. Now he believes the opposite.
* He argued the NRA should not have a role in the Republican Party’s policy making. Now he believes the opposite.
* McCain supported his own lobbying-reform legislation from 1997. Now he doesn’t.
* He wanted political support from radical televangelists like John Hagee and Rod Parsley. Now he doesn’t.
* McCain supported the Lieberman/Warner legislation to combat global warming. Now he doesn’t.
And these are the flip-flops I’ve noticed earlier:
* McCain pledged in February 2008 that he would not, under any circumstances, raise taxes. Specifically, McCain was asked if he is a “‘read my lips’ candidate, no new taxes, no matter what?” referring to George H.W. Bush’s 1988 pledge. “No new taxes,” McCain responded. Two weeks later, McCain said, “I’m not making a ‘read my lips’ statement, in that I will not raise taxes.”
* McCain is both for and against a “rogue state rollback” as a focus of his foreign policy vision.
* McCain says he considered and did not consider joining John Kerry’s Democratic ticket in 2004.
* In 1998, he championed raising cigarette taxes to fund programs to cut underage smoking, insisting that it would prevent illnesses and provide resources for public health programs. Now, McCain opposes a $0.61-per-pack tax increase, won’t commit to supporting a regulation bill he’s co-sponsoring, and has hired Philip Morris’ former lobbyist as his senior campaign adviser.
* McCain has changed his economic worldview on multiple occasions.
* McCain has changed his mind about a long-term U.S. military presence in Iraq on multiple occasions.
* McCain is both for and against attacking Barack Obama over his former pastor at his former church.
* McCain believes Americans are both better and worse off than they were before Bush took office.
* McCain is both for and against earmarks for Arizona.
* McCain believes his endorsement from radical televangelist John Hagee was both a good and bad idea.
* McCain’s first mortgage plan was premised on the notion that homeowners facing foreclosure shouldn’t be “rewarded” for acting “irresponsibly.” His second mortgage plan took largely the opposite position.
* McCain vowed, if elected, to balance the federal budget by the end of his first term. Soon after, he decided he would no longer even try to reach that goal.
* In February 2008, McCain reversed course on prohibiting waterboarding.
* McCain used to champion the Law of the Sea convention, even volunteering to testify on the treaty’s behalf before a Senate committee. Now he opposes it.
* McCain was a co-sponsor of the DREAM Act, which would grant legal status to illegal immigrants’ kids who graduate from high school. Now he’s against it.
* On immigration policy in general, McCain announced in February 2008 that he would vote against his own legislation.
* In 2006, McCain sponsored legislation to require grassroots lobbying coalitions to reveal their financial donors. In 2007, after receiving “feedback” on the proposal, McCain told far-right activist groups that he opposes his own measure.
* McCain said before the war in Iraq, “We will win this conflict. We will win it easily.” Four years later, McCain said he knew all along that the war in Iraq war was “probably going to be long and hard and tough.”
* McCain said he was the “greatest critic” of Rumsfeld’s failed Iraq policy. In December 2003, McCain praised the same strategy as “a mission accomplished.” In March 2004, he said, “I’m confident we’re on the right course.” In December 2005, he said, “Overall, I think a year from now, we will have made a fair amount of progress if we stay the course.”
* McCain went from saying he would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade to saying the exact opposite.
* McCain went from saying gay marriage should be allowed, to saying gay marriage shouldn’t be allowed.
* McCain criticized TV preacher Jerry Falwell as “an agent of intolerance” in 2002, but then decided to cozy up to the man who said Americans “deserved” the 9/11 attacks.
* McCain used to oppose Bush’s tax cuts for the very wealthy, but he reversed course in February.
* On a related note, he said 2005 that he opposed the tax cuts because they were “too tilted to the wealthy.” By 2007, he denied ever having said this, and insisted he opposed the cuts because of increased government spending.
* In 2000, McCain accused Texas businessmen Sam and Charles Wyly of being corrupt, spending “dirty money” to help finance Bush’s presidential campaign. McCain not only filed a complaint against the Wylys for allegedly violating campaign finance law, he also lashed out at them publicly. In April, McCain reached out to the Wylys for support.
* McCain supported a major campaign-finance reform measure that bore his name. In June 2007, he abandoned his own legislation.
* McCain opposed a holiday to honor Martin Luther King, Jr., before he supported it.
* McCain was against presidential candidates campaigning at Bob Jones University before he was for it.
* McCain was anti-ethanol. Now he’s pro-ethanol.
* McCain was both for and against state promotion of the Confederate flag.
* McCain decided in 2000 that he didn’t want anything to do with former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, believing he “would taint the image of the ‘Straight Talk Express.’” Kissinger is now the Honorary Co-Chair for his presidential campaign in New York. |
(go to the link to see links for supporting evidence)
But you also have is actual insanity, denying that he has said things that he was taped saying, such as
http://www.liberalsvsconservat.....t2396.html
These also do a good job to showing the issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnb2IrsU1Cg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEtZlR3zp4c
Obama has his problems, but McBush is whacked. |
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Toxic
Forum Elder
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:40 am Post subject: |
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| Holy crap, that list is so much larger than what I posted and it's from the same site. |
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Timetheos
Known Associate
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 432
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| Toxic wrote: | | Holy crap, that list is so much larger than what I posted and it's from the same site. |
The more people look at McSame, the more they find he is a fraud.
Watch the vids also; they're pretty good. |
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Toxic
Forum Elder
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Watch the vids also; they're pretty good. |
Ah Greenwald. Indeed, those were very good. |
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Timetheos
Known Associate
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 432
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: More McBush stupidity |
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| Quote: | This morning, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) appeared on MSNBC and blasted Congress for being lazy. He said that instead of taking a Fourth of July recess, senators should have stuck around and passed a housing bill. McCain now ranks as the #1 most absent senator of the 110th Congress, having missed 61.8 percent of the votes.
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http://digg.com/2008_us_electi.....A_Week_Off |
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JLV
Site Admin
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 102
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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His vote on this bill upset me very much so.
This is the first time I agree with something Cornopean has ever said.
The flag pin business you speak of, I think, is really a non-issue. He was smart and started wearing one to make the feeble, weak minded people, who make this an actual issue, happy.
I no longer support his views on the war nor the FISA issue.
I also feel like I have been somewhat lied to.
I actually went to NYC with a buddy of mine because Obama was his man, and he wanted to go to a speech of his in Washington Square park. I attended and actually enjoyed what he had to say. He even talked of not wanting to be at war and bringing troops home. Now it looks like he has slightly changed his tune.
I guess we will see in the upcoming months, how bald, rich, white and elite Obama really is... |
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Timetheos
Known Associate
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 432
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| JLV wrote: | His vote on this bill upset me very much so.
This is the first time I agree with something Cornopean has ever said.
The flag pin business you speak of, I think, is really a non-issue. He was smart and started wearing one to make the feeble, weak minded people, who make this an actual issue, happy.
I no longer support his views on the war nor the FISA issue.
I also feel like I have been somewhat lied to.
I actually went to NYC with a buddy of mine because Obama was his man, and he wanted to go to a speech of his in Washington Square park. I attended and actually enjoyed what he had to say. He even talked of not wanting to be at war and bringing troops home. Now it looks like he has slightly changed his tune.
I guess we will see in the upcoming months, how bald, rich, white and elite Obama really is... |
I generally agree. I've gone from a "fired up supporter" of Obama to a "tepid supporter". Ultimately, the problem is that elections are a zero-sum game. At a practical level, it's Obama versus McCain. Obama has his problems, but McSame is far worse. |
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