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cornopean
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:23 pm Post subject: Increasing American Prosperity |
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interesting article showing the increases in American prosperity over the last 10-20 years. this is non-partisan too. lots of dems and repubs in the presidency and congress during these times.
average hourly earnings increased by 4.1% over the past year. this is about double the inflation rate.
In 2004, the latest year for which we have comparable information, 34% of families made over $75,000. But in 1979, only 21% did so, after adjusting for inflation.
And we now have fewer families in lower-income brackets. Only 46% of families made less than $50,000 in 2004, compared with 54% of families in 1979.
Real median family income was $54,000 in 2004. After inflation, that's 11% higher than in 1994, 18% higher than in 1984, 25% higher than in 1974, and 59% higher than in 1964.
Adjusting for decreasing family size, real median family income is 13% higher than in 1994, 22% higher than in 1984, 37% higher than in 1974, and 88% higher than in 1964.
These numbers represent income before tax. So they don't include subtractions for federal, state, and payroll taxes, which reduce income. Nor do they include additions to income such as employer-provided health insurance and pensions, and government benefits such as Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, school lunch programs, and tax credits.
When all these are taken into account, real median household income adjusted for household size (the numbers aren't available for family income) has risen by 34% over the past 20 years.
Over the past 30 years, real average hourly compensation, a measure that includes wages and benefits, has risen by 41%.
And real income per person has increased by 62%.
In 1985, 38% of poor households owned a home — by 2005 it was 43%. And these homes were of better quality than the 1985 homes. In 1985, 17% of these homes had central air conditioning, and in 2005, 50% did. 56% of homes owned by poor households had washing machines in 1985, and in 2005, it was 64%.
http://www.nysun.com/pf.php?id=44915 |
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Lester
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| So from this can we extrapolate that the conditions of people in thrid world countries is getting worse? |
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cornopean
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Lester wrote: | | So from this can we extrapolate that the conditions of people in thrid world countries is getting worse? |
no......b/c economics is not a zero sum game. when we get better, or for that matter when any country gets better, all the surrounding countries get better too. a rising tide lifts all boats. when the rich get richer, everyone generally gets richer. that is why income inequality is in many respects a sign of a healthy economy. |
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exton
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| cornopean wrote: | | a rising tide lifts all boats. when the rich get richer, everyone generally gets richer. that is why income inequality is in many respects a sign of a healthy economy. |
It's true that, over time, everyone gets richer (in a growing economy).
It is not true that this is because the rich are getting richer. The reason that the rich get richer is the same reason that everyone else gets richer - the economy is growing.
But that's not where the story ends.
The analogy of boats and tides is not accurate.
In this analogy, boats are persons (or groups of persons), and the tide is the economy.
When you're on the ocean and the tide rises, everything goes up with it, because the water rises the same amount for everyone.
In the economy, it doesn't (necessarily) work the same way. While it's possible that the rising tide of the economy could lift everyone's boats, that is not what has been happening.
The rich have been getting richer, and the poor have been getting richer.
But the rate at which the rich have gotten richer is much, much higher than the rate at which the poor have gotten richer.
In a rising economy that lifts everyone's boats, the inequality in the economy would stay the same.
That has not been happening. Inequality is growing, and is growing at an increasing rate. That is to say, it's accelerating.
Whether or not that's a sign of a healthy economy depends entirely on who you are and where you live. If you're rich, or kinda rich, it's a fantastic economy.
If you're not, things aren't so great. Whether or not the economy is good for poor people as well depends on whether or not their incomes have been rising at or above the rate of inflation. As far as i know, they've been rising more slowly than inflation. But i could be wrong on that. |
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Lester
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| cornopean wrote: | | Lester wrote: | | So from this can we extrapolate that the conditions of people in thrid world countries is getting worse? |
no......b/c economics is not a zero sum game. when we get better, or for that matter when any country gets better, all the surrounding countries get better too. a rising tide lifts all boats. when the rich get richer, everyone generally gets richer. that is why income inequality is in many respects a sign of a healthy economy. |
Oh yes, trickle down economics BS. |
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cornopean
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| exton wrote: |
That has not been happening. Inequality is growing, and is growing at an increasing rate. That is to say, it's accelerating. |
this growing inequality is to be expected in a free economy. people have different gifts; and skills; and just sheer luck.
| Quote: | | Whether or not that's a sign of a healthy economy depends entirely on who you are and where you live. If you're rich, or kinda rich, it's a fantastic economy. |
well if you don't participate in an economy you can't participate in its wealth. you do have to get out of bed to receive the benefits of a growing economy.
| Quote: | | If you're not, things aren't so great. Whether or not the economy is good for poor people as well depends on whether or not their incomes have been rising at or above the rate of inflation. As far as i know, they've been rising more slowly than inflation. But i could be wrong on that. |
but there is a reason why poor people stay poor and why their children are poor. some people would be poor if they fell into a gold mine. single parenthood is the biggest cause of poverty in the US. a growing economy will not fix that problem. such people are going to stay poor. |
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exton
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| cornopean wrote: | | exton wrote: |
That has not been happening. Inequality is growing, and is growing at an increasing rate. That is to say, it's accelerating. |
this growing inequality is to be expected in a free economy. people have different gifts; and skills; and just sheer luck. |
That is correct. Did i say otherwise?
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | Whether or not that's a sign of a healthy economy depends entirely on who you are and where you live. If you're rich, or kinda rich, it's a fantastic economy. |
well if you don't participate in an economy you can't participate in its wealth. you do have to get out of bed to receive the benefits of a growing economy. |
Again...i don't disagree...do you have a point?
| Quote: |
but there is a reason why poor people stay poor and why their children are poor. some people would be poor if they fell into a gold mine. single parenthood is the biggest cause of poverty in the US. a growing economy will not fix that problem. such people are going to stay poor. |
I don't disagree, and i never claimed that an economy alone would solve such problems.
You say, "american prosperity is increasing".
I say, "no, prosperity is increasing for some americans. For others, it is decreasing". |
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cornopean
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| exton wrote: | You say, "American prosperity is increasing".
I say, "no, prosperity is increasing for some Americans. For others, it is decreasing". |
I just assumed you were going to start on the typical liberal class warfare line. i.e. that while some Americans get richer others are getting poorer and that there is a causal relationship between the two. I guess we agree.
like listen to this guy. I boldfaced the childish economic thinking of this "macroeconomist" (ha!)
"I think it's very bad," said Dean Baker, a macroeconomist at the Center for Economic and Policy Research in Washington. "If the U.S. had experienced really extraordinary growth, then maybe that would be the reason" for all the billionaires. Baker pointed out that U.S. economic growth in the past 25 years -- the period that hatched this crop of billionaires -- is actually slower than in the preceding quarter-century, which produced only 13 billionaires.
"If these people pull away so much wealth," he said, "that means everyone else has less."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....310_2.html |
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exton
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:34 am Post subject: |
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I don't disagree with that either. It so happens that that is what is happening. It doesn't HAVE to be happening that way, though. Rich getting richer doesn't always mean poor getting poorer. |
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cornopean
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| exton wrote: |
I don't disagree with that either. It so happens that that is what is happening. It doesn't HAVE to be happening that way, though. Rich getting richer doesn't always mean poor getting poorer. |
I deny that this is happening. but let's assume it is happening.......what do you propose to do about it? |
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exton
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| cornopean wrote: | | exton wrote: |
I don't disagree with that either. It so happens that that is what is happening. It doesn't HAVE to be happening that way, though. Rich getting richer doesn't always mean poor getting poorer. |
I deny that this is happening. |
How can you? The rich are getting richer by orders of magnitude faster than the poor, whose wages are rising below the rate of inflation.
The end result is that, yes, the rich are getting richer, and the poor are getting poorer.
| Quote: |
but let's assume it is happening.......what do you propose to do about it? |
There's no quick fix. The real solution is better educating the poor, and giving them job training.
That takes time, of course. There are other ways to help, but that's really the only lasting solution.
And even then, the economy and our way of life will have to change somewhat. We'll either have to pay a lot more for menial jobs, or replace them with robots. Or something.
It's a pretty long term thing. |
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Lester
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Joined: 08 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| cornopean wrote: | | exton wrote: |
I don't disagree with that either. It so happens that that is what is happening. It doesn't HAVE to be happening that way, though. Rich getting richer doesn't always mean poor getting poorer. |
I deny that this is happening. but let's assume it is happening.......what do you propose to do about it? |
I propose communism. |
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cornopean
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Lester wrote: | | cornopean wrote: | | exton wrote: |
I don't disagree with that either. It so happens that that is what is happening. It doesn't HAVE to be happening that way, though. Rich getting richer doesn't always mean poor getting poorer. |
I deny that this is happening. but let's assume it is happening.......what do you propose to do about it? |
I propose communism. |
couple of questions:
1. are you serious?
2. has communism ever worked anywhere? |
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cornopean
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | How can you? The rich are getting richer by orders of magnitude faster than the poor, whose wages are rising below the rate of inflation. |
yes I agree that the rich are getting richer faster than the poor are getting richer. but nearly everyone who gets out of bed is getting richer.
| Quote: |
The end result is that, yes, the rich are getting richer, and the poor are getting poorer. |
no...i deny that the poor are getting poorer.
do you think that the rich getting rich causes the poor to get poorer?
| Quote: | | There's no quick fix. The real solution is better educating the poor, and giving them job training. |
so is this something the govt is going to try to impose on poor lazy people or are they going to have to take the initiative and do the hard work of getting an education? |
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Anym
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Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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Location: Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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It's amazing were debating how well America is doing financially especially after that 400 point drop in the dow. Cornopean nice chart from the amazingly uncredible Neo-Conservative think tank the Heritage Foundation. What next you gonna bring up the Al Gore's taxes from the Drudge Report?
And before yo say everybody is biased yes but some of them are more to the center Hell it tell's you it's lying.
Heritage's stated mission is to "formulate and promote conservative public policies"
And I doubt there doing through good honest hard work.
Its'Major donors
Joseph Coors,Amway Corp. and right-leaning foundations like the Bradley, Olin and Scaife foundations,Chase Manhattan Bank, Dow Chemical Company, Ford Motor Company, General Motors, Mobil, Procter & Gamble, and GlaxoSmithKline. |
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