Historical Evidence Against Creationism

Home :: Search :: Memberlist :: Privacy Policy :: Donate!

Historical Evidence Against Creationism

Home // Evolution Versus Creationism

Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Next

exton
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:09 pm Post subject:

Freddie wrote:

Just out of curiosity why would you be skeptical until you research it? I don't mean that in a flipent way or anything. What I mean is you seem to want to doubt anything I say. Which is fine but give youself a chance to understand what I'm showing you before you dismiss me as crazy or errent.

I am skeptical regarding everything - including my own thoughts.

Quote:

It's all taken as a whole. The clear reasoning is there in everthing. People dismiss things right from the start because they dismiss the supernatural. They dismiss the spiritual things of life. When someone understands the things of the spirit better then those things that seem illogical become logical.

Logic is objective; whether or not a conclusion is logical has absolutely nothign to do with how you feel about it. If a conclusion is logical, it can be shown to be logical.

Quote:

It seems to me that many here have not really done much study on the subject and hey I was the same way. I made comments not unlike these you all have been making to me.

That's a common falsehood. People do not reject religion merely because they do not understand it.

Your surprise at my skpeticism would seem to indicate that you were never really a skeptic yourself; you were just someone who didn't have a solid conclusion to work with.

exton
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:10 pm Post subject:

Freddie wrote:

they are not "inspired text" or just down right fiction.

Okay.

Prove it.

jusdeadphunky
Forum Elder

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 2222

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:38 pm Post subject:

Freddie wrote:

There are many writtings about Jesus outside our Bible some are histories most are Gnostic. The reason they are not encluded is that they are not "inspired text" or just down right fiction.

it has been proven that the gnostic gospels pre-date some of the gospels that are in the bible and it has also been proven that they were deliberately left out of the bible to aid the catholic church both in growth and in funds.

Freddie
Not a Newbie

Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Arkansas

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject:

jusdeadphunky wrote:

Freddie wrote:

There are many writtings about Jesus outside our Bible some are histories most are Gnostic. The reason they are not encluded is that they are not "inspired text" or just down right fiction.

You watch too much history channel LOL. As everyone keeps telling me prove it.

Freddie
Not a Newbie

Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Arkansas

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:08 pm Post subject:

exton wrote:

Freddie wrote:

I am skeptical regarding everything - including my own thoughts.

Quote:

Logic is objective; whether or not a conclusion is logical has absolutely nothign to do with how you feel about it. If a conclusion is logical, it can be shown to be logical.

Quote:

It seems to me that many here have not really done much study on the subject and hey I was the same way. I made comments not unlike these you all have been making to me.

I was a skeptic. Being a skeptic is not a total rejection of but in scrutiny of a subject. A persons mind set determins their attitude. If you totally reject something, you'll never listen to a thing anyone says about it objectively. If you are a skeptic you'll hear it all out.

It's not a false hood that people reject God without really knowing him.

I offer this to you. No one who has commented on anything I have said has portrayed the gospel correctly.(go back and look, there are snide remarks like when was the last time a liberal pulled people out of there houses so on and so forth)

Why? Because it's been distorted by bad teachers and bad leaders.

Most people who speak against Christianity are working off a false sense of what it means to follow Christ. Why? Because of the bad experiences they have had or the bad examples they've had such as : The Roman Catholic Church (control,distortion,extortion,and persecution not just of non believers but mostly of believers) King Richard (the crusades caused more damage than good. Christ never told us to spread our faith by the sword [by the way that's the Islamic way of doing things]), The kkk (I have no idea why they feel like it's ok to add God to what they do, it's dispicable), not to mention people like Jim Baker who shook down the poor people that trusted them. The list goes on and on but not one of these people have been either examples of being Christ like and or have distorted the scripture to suit there own agenda.

It's no wonder people here the word Christ and automatically think "Nut Job". It's not the faith of Christianity that is to blame but of twisted people who use things they don't understand or twist the scriptures to get what they want that are dangerous.

People like David Kuresh and Jim Jones pop up and people again say "Yep I told you all this religion stuff is detrimental". No it's the mentally unstable people that try to justify themselves through religion.

Let me ask you a question. If a person was to begin killing people in the name of Bozo the clown do you think people would blame Bozo or do you think we'd look at the person and see them for what they are; mentally unstable and in need of help.

Christ never told us to kill, he told us to love. He never told us to descreminate he told us to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. We are not to love the sin but we are not to hate the person who sins because we all sin, everyone of us.

Jesus taught us mercy and grace and futher more to show mercy and grace toward one another.

If you want the truth, ask Him (that is God) to show it to you and He will. Read your bible but do it without having your mind already made up that you're not going to get anything from it and without looking for things to support the false teachings that have come from poor teachers. Open you mind and much more open your heart.

Look God doesn't force Himself on us, He gave us a choice. That's one thing many Christian teachers fail to teach. Let me give you this for example. If you have children think about this.

A child is told to give his/her parent a hug to which the child says "no, I don't want to" then the person says "you will or I'll make you" to which the child still declines. What joy would the parent recieve in having the Child pulled kicking and screaming toward their parent and forced to hug the parent? What joy would the child have?

But if a child wants a hug and goes willingly to their parent and jumps into the parents lap, there in lies joy and peace. This is what God wants, this is the kind of relationship He wants with us. Not a forced convert or die attitude that Islam has or that the Roman Catholic church embraced at one time (no disrespect to Catholics the Catholic church has grown since that time but still has a long way to go)

People want to look at the things that have been done for evil hiding behind Christ but do you realize how many lives are saved each year when people turn their lives over to Christ and are delivered from addiction (everything from alcohol to drugs to prostitution, etc.)? Do you ever consider the families that are put back together, the teens who make the right choices due to their faith? How about the mission work that's being done by people like Jars of Clay (christian band) that work in areas like Africa bringing clean water and setting up hospitals? A true Christian by nature wants to and does do good works, not for salvation reasons but simply because it's our calling, that is to be Christ like, (set at liberty the bruised and broken hearted)

The bad examples get the press, the truth gets surpressed. That is the plain and simple truth. Don't want to hear if but I bet you can even test yourself. I bet the last time you had a negative experience with a retail person or a resturaunt you told everyone who'd hear it, but what about the last positive experience you had with the same kind of thing, I bet you told one or two people in passing.

I am a teacher of God's Word and called to be Pastor to preach the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Not to water it down or to make it pretty but to bring it in humility and truth.

Many blessings to you

jusdeadphunky
Forum Elder

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 2222

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject:

Freddie wrote:

jusdeadphunky wrote:

Freddie wrote:

There are many writtings about Jesus outside our Bible some are histories most are Gnostic. The reason they are not encluded is that they are not "inspired text" or just down right fiction.

You watch too much history channel LOL. As everyone keeps telling me prove it.

i am no expert on them, but to me the gnostic gospel (btw the are dated to precisely the right time frame) ordeal seems to provide a point of reference as to where christianity went wrong, and morphed into the entity which is responsible for some of the worst crimes against humanity ever recorded.

i mean what if the gnostics were the ones that should have been embraced but instead matthew, mark, luke and john which are perversions were?

Freddie
Not a Newbie

Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Arkansas

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject:

jusdeadphunky wrote:

Freddie wrote:

jusdeadphunky wrote:

Freddie wrote:

There are many writtings about Jesus outside our Bible some are histories most are Gnostic. The reason they are not encluded is that they are not "inspired text" or just down right fiction.

You watch too much history channel LOL. As everyone keeps telling me prove it.

The Gnostic gospel are full of inaccuacies. I'll put together a study as soon as I get the chance and share it with you just as soon as I can.

The perversion of the gospels came from the Catholic church setting themselves up as the power of rule. To hold onto that rule they did distorted and corrupted the scriptures and didn't allow anyone to read the scriptures out side Latin. It was illegal to own a bible written in a common language and death was the punishment. It's been a while since I read it so excuse me if I quote the reference wrong but I believe it's in "Fox's book of martyrs" there is an account of a husband and wife that were burned at the stake for teaching there children the Lords prayer in english.

The Catholic church ruled with fear over the laity all the while taking bribes for pennance from the wealthy to forgive their sins. But there where those who fought for the truth, such as Martin Luther,Thomas Linacre,John Colet,Erasmus and William Tyndale. Without these men and many more like them the Catholic church would have continued on controlling every aspect of the State and quite possibly right now you'd be on trial for heresy LOL...but seriously without these kind of men it would be a whole lot worse.

jusdeadphunky
Forum Elder

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 2222

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:53 pm Post subject:

Freddie wrote:

jusdeadphunky wrote:

Freddie wrote:

jusdeadphunky wrote:

Freddie wrote:

There are many writtings about Jesus outside our Bible some are histories most are Gnostic. The reason they are not encluded is that they are not "inspired text" or just down right fiction.

You watch too much history channel LOL. As everyone keeps telling me prove it.

i will look forward to your itinerary of inaccuracies of the gnostic gospels.

you are right about the catholics...i am used to arguing with catholics about this sort of stuff, and they tend to forget about the church's dark past and recent history.

but nonetheless what if contained in the gnostic gospels is an emphasis similar to that of the teachings of the buddah in regards to buddhism being a personal religion. this would hinder the ability of the church to have the same influence into peoples' lives and it would strip priests, preachers, and ministers the power and money they gain from speaking to a congregation every week.

exton
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:42 pm Post subject:

Freddie wrote:

I was a skeptic. Being a skeptic is not a total rejection of but in scrutiny of a subject.

That is correct.

A skeptic doesn't just scrutinize, though - he does so intelligently. It's a matter of critical thinking.

Quote:

It's not a false hood that people reject God without really knowing him.

It is not a falsehood that some people, somewhere, at sometime, reject god without really knowing him.

It IS a falsehood to suggest (without evidence) that any person in particular rejects god without knowing him, and it is a falsehood to suggest that atheists as a whole reject god without knowing him.

Quote:

I offer this to you. No one who has commented on anything I have said has portrayed the gospel correctly.(go back and look, there are snide remarks like when was the last time a liberal pulled people out of there houses so on and so forth)

And who determines the "correct" way to portray it?

If anyone does, it's certainly not you.

Quote:

Most people who speak against Christianity are working off a false sense of what it means to follow Christ. Why? Because of the bad experiences they have had or the bad examples they've had

That is, in fact, a falsehood. It's patently untrue.

Although many people mention the evils done in the name of religion, those are not their actual reasons for not believing.

Quote:

Let me ask you a question. If a person was to begin killing people in the name of Bozo the clown do you think people would blame Bozo or do you think we'd look at the person and see them for what they are; mentally unstable and in need of help.

I do not, nor have i ever, claim that religion actually CAUSES people to act violently.

Quote:

But if a child wants a hug and goes willingly to their parent and jumps into the parents lap, there in lies joy and peace. This is what God wants, this is the kind of relationship He wants with us.

God can certainly have that kind of relationship. He just has to show himself.

And no, proving that he exists does not remove choice on anyone's part. People can still choose to disbelieve even in the face of good evidence, and they can choose to hate even in the face of evidence that god loves them.

Evidence is a perfectly reasonable request.

Quote:

do you realize how many lives are saved each year when people turn their lives over to Christ and are delivered from addiction (everything from alcohol to drugs to prostitution, etc.)? Do you ever consider the families that are put back together, the teens who make the right choices due to their faith? How about the mission work that's being done by people like Jars of Clay (christian band) that work in areas like Africa bringing clean water and setting up hospitals?

Just as being a christian doesn't turn someone into a homicidal maniac, it doesn't transform them into a saint, either.

Freddie
Not a Newbie

Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Arkansas

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:11 pm Post subject:

Quote:

And who determines the "correct" way to portray it?

If anyone does, it's certainly not you.

I'm not sure if this a personal dig at me or your actual feelings on what I teach. If it's a personal dig then ok but if its an attempt to say I do not teach correct doctrine then I would challenge you to show me what portion of my teaching concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ is incorrect.

I have dedicated my life to teaching correct doctrine, not based on man but based on the revelation given through the Word of God and prayer.

Quote:

That is, in fact, a falsehood. It's patently untrue.

Although many people mention the evils done in the name of religion, those are not their actual reasons for not believing.

If you really believe that your fooling yourself my friend. This is a worn out argument and ranks up there and is used in corridination with "why do babies die".

Quote:

I do not, nor have i ever, claim that religion actually CAUSES people to act violently.

The bozo statement was not necessarily directed at you personally. You may not have made statements to that end but plenty others have.

Quote:

There is evidence all around you if you want to open your heart to it. One day He will be seen coming in the clouds but at that point; sorry it's too late.

Jesus told Thomas " Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

Quote:

Just as being a christian doesn't turn someone into a homicidal maniac, it doesn't transform them into a saint, either.

Where as I understand what you say, it's not exactly true. Being a Christian a true Christian is to change and to bare fruit that shows that change and yes we are called saints; the catholics have corrupted that word, the apostle Paul used that word to describe all true believers.

Just saying you are a Christian doesn't cut it, your right but being a true Christian is an entirely different matter.

Freddie
Not a Newbie

Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Arkansas

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:14 pm Post subject:

[quote="jusdeadphunky]
but nonetheless what if contained in the gnostic gospels is an emphasis similar to that of the teachings of the buddah in regards to buddhism being a personal religion. this would hinder the ability of the church to have the same influence into peoples' lives and it would strip priests, preachers, and ministers the power and money they gain from speaking to a congregation every week.[/quote]

You mean preachers get Paid!!! Surprised

Man I've totally been messed over I've been preaching for close to two years and haven't even been bought lunch.

Seriously I have never earned the first peny, I pastor a small church and I tithe every week. I know there are some who use God to try to fleece the sheep and they will be held accountable for that. It's ok to be supported by the church if it can, this gives the minister the time to focus on the Word of God, prayer, and visiting the sick etc.

Those who use the church to profit, like Joel Osteen will one day feel quite crunchy when the Lord says depart from me I never knew you.

exton
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:21 pm Post subject:

Freddie wrote:

Quote:

And who determines the "correct" way to portray it?

If anyone does, it's certainly not you.

The problem is that revelation is subjective. It cannot be shown to be correct. Your revelations are just as valid as anyone else's.

Quote:

That is, in fact, a falsehood. It's patently untrue.
Although many people mention the evils done in the name of religion, those are not their actual reasons for not believing.

If you really believe that your fooling yourself my friend. This is a worn out argument and ranks up there and is used in corridination with "why do babies die".

Have you ever tried really asking atheists why they don't believe? Not why they think religion is bad, but why they, personally, do not believe.

It's the same case as with atheists; atheists often assume that christians are mindless simpletons. And while this is sometimes true, the reality of the matter is more complex. The best way to know what a christian believes is to ask him.

Quote:

Evidence is a perfectly reasonable request.

There is evidence all around you if you want to open your heart to it. One day He will be seen coming in the clouds but at that point; sorry it's too late.

One thing that a lot of people do not realize is that their internal feelings and impressions are not reliable indicators of the truth.

There's no such thing as seeing evidence with your heart. Anything you feel is just that - your feelings.

Quote:

Just saying you are a Christian doesn't cut it, your right but being a true Christian is an entirely different matter.

That's the "no true scottsman" fallacy.

That is, your idea of what is and is not a true christian may or may not be correct, regardless of how strongly you believe it.

Freddie
Not a Newbie

Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Arkansas

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:36 pm Post subject:

What if someone has the revelation that the sky is actually hot pink in color. Would you say well that's valid? No you wouldn't. If the revelation doesn't fit the model than it doesn't take a scholar to say hey wait thats not right. My revelation fits not only the model of the truth of Jesus Christ it actually aligns with the word of God. There are false teachers in this world I've already given some examples and the revelation they claim does not fit the model nor the Word.

I can be proven correct in many ways just by appling the revelation to my life and seeing what comes out of it.

I witness every chance I get. The thing you seem to be doing is saying that unless an atheist or agnostic gives the answer you give then they must be wrong....hmm sounds kind of like the same thing Christians are acused of LOL.

As far as the feeling thing goes again there is back up acording to how it's applied to the life, the fruit that is born of it is the evidence of things unseen.

Quote:

That's the "no true scottsman" fallacy.

That is, your idea of what is and is not a true christian may or may not be correct, regardless of how strongly you believe it.

This is completely wrong kat daddy, I'm sorry I don't mean to be so blunt but its true. Christianity can be defined there for actions can be held up to the standard and judged as either agreeing with the definition or not agreeing.

exton
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:09 am Post subject:

Freddie wrote:

What if someone has the revelation that the sky is actually hot pink in color. Would you say well that's valid? No you wouldn't.

But then, you can measure the color of the sky.

Quote:

If the revelation doesn't fit the model than it doesn't take a scholar to say hey wait thats not right. My revelation fits not only the model of the truth of Jesus Christ it actually aligns with the word of God. There are false teachers in this world I've already given some examples and the revelation they claim does not fit the model nor the Word.

The "model the truth of jesus christ" is a subjective belief on your part. Having a "revelation" that confirms what you already believe proves nothing.

And if your beliefs are defined by your revelations, again, you've proven nothing, because that cannot be objectively verified.

Quote:

I witness every chance I get. The thing you seem to be doing is saying that unless an atheist or agnostic gives the answer you give then they must be wrong....hmm sounds kind of like the same thing Christians are acused of LOL.

I've neither said nor implied any such thing.

Quote:

I can be proven correct in many ways just by appling the revelation to my life and seeing what comes out of it.

As far as the feeling thing goes again there is back up acording to how it's applied to the life, the fruit that is born of it is the evidence of things unseen.

No, it isn't. Especially not when there are more mundane explanations.

Quote:

This is completely wrong kat daddy, I'm sorry I don't mean to be so blunt but its true. Christianity can be defined there for actions

That's my point: you're not the one who defines how a christian should or should not act.

By definition alone, a christian is one who believes that jesus christ is his lord and savior. That's what being a christian actually means.

Anything above and beyond that is a subjective belief of your own.

Freddie
Not a Newbie

Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Arkansas

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:46 pm Post subject:

[quote="exton
By definition alone, a christian is one who believes that jesus christ is his lord and savior. That's what being a christian actually means.

Anything above and beyond that is a subjective belief of your own.[/quote]

Wrong again as usually LOL but no seriously the word Christian was first used in Antioch to describe followers of Jesus Christ not just believers mind you but those who took on the character of Christ.

Just because you say you believe doesn't make you a Christian. James said "you say you have faith and I have works: show me your faith without your works and I'll show you my faith by my works" If you say you believe but you don't walk the walk then you have a dead faith.

I'm still waiting for you to give me anything to back up your oppinions. You keep telling me I operate of conjecture or on feelings or oppinions but you still haven't suggested anything at all that can be proven. I give you references, inside and outside of the bible. What you keep giving me is this attitude that you speak on behalf of every atheist or agnostic on the planet and have not given any references to back up those opinions.

I think our debate would be much better to present both sides more fully. At this point it seems like an endless circle of me speaking and you saying "so what that's just your opinion". Believe it or not I want to actually understand you better.

I'm not here to argue for the sake of arguing I can get that at home with my wife Laughing

. So what say you are you willing to do some research into your own oppinions and find reference material to back yourself up or are we just locked into a battle of "I know you are but what am I"

God bless

	LVC Home // Evolution Versus Creationism	All times are GMT Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Next
Page 5 of 8

Political Blogs - BlogCatalog Blog Directory