Health Care is NOT a Right

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Health Care is NOT a Right

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capitalist
Known Associate

Joined: 16 Mar 2008
Posts: 293

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:55 am Post subject: Health Care is NOT a Right

No human being has the right to health care, just like no human being has the 'right' to a job or the 'right' to an automobile or the 'right' to an iPod.

Health care is a good. It is in limited supply. I want health care to be available to the most people at the lowest price, which is precisely why I oppose government interference in health care.

The way to make health care affordable is to allow it to be sold on the free market like a cell phone. Cell phones were at one time incredibly expensive but, as result of free market forces, cell phones are affordable for nearly all Americans. Why assume health care is different?

And don't try to tell me that health care in the US is currently free market -- the US government spends more on health care per capita than any other country in the world.

timch
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:00 am Post subject:

health care is not a cell phone. i'm not sure that's a decent analogy at all. communication technologies as a whole would be a better example, only we aren't replacing the basic idea of the phone like we're replacing possible treatments for cancer. last time i checked, cell phones also weren't responsible for helping keep people alive.

health care also isn't a free market right now. i'm not sure anyone is arguing that. they are exempt from anti-trust legislation, unlike many businesses.

furthermore, either a government option is going to be better than private health care options at providing insurance by being cheaper, more reliable, and efficient, or it isn't. if it is better, by your definition of a free market, it is the option that should survive. if it doesn't, well, i guess it won't be that much of a problem for the private insurance plans anyway.

neurospyder
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:59 am Post subject: Do Not Want

Huh? Cell phone companies? They're only marginally better than tabacco companies.

You might want to try that again, only keep your eye on the ball this time.

Averell Torrent
Newbie

Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 3

Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:17 am Post subject: Healthcare

Capatilist you are right. Health-Care is not a basic human right. To discuss this first we need to define exactly what health care is. Health-Care was meant to provide a service that could pay for a doctors appointment or operation when you don't have the money to pay it at that moment. This of course like other insurance types comes at a monthly cost. Not everyone has health care, it is something that costs a lot of money but many businnesses and organizations give their members benefits. IT would be great if everyone got cheap healthcare but that just can't happen. The cost to pay doctors, buy equipment and medicine, and fund hospitals is a lot and thus they charge a lot for you to use them. For the government to pay for many peoples heal care is too expensive especially with the current economy and national deficit. Some form of health care should be passed but just not right now.

I dont think a government health care plan should cover every docotrs appointment and medical event. The government shoudl not pay for people to get abortions, go through sports physical therapy, get braces and many more expensive and unnescary procedures. I think a health care plan should be passes that does pay for life emergencies and other operations that if not taken could lead to death or a serious illness. A small healthcare plan should also be implemented to cover the costs hospitals endure when they recieve patients in dire need of medical care with insurance.
This plan should not punish insurance companies, there should be no public option, and everyone shoudl be able to recieve this basic healthcare. Rich people will still buy their own health insurance plans to get better coverage but that is a luxury.

shankarsingam
Forum Elder

Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 1145

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:14 pm Post subject:

Capitalist, i will submit to you that healthcare is right. A human right.

My wife and i were denied the right to have a baby.

This issue has kept my wife and i up at nights wondering in helplessness how if at all we can change the bleakness of our future.

Since 2008, i have lost my healthcare coverage from my employer, meaning my wife has also lost her healthcare. 2009 after receiving her Masters degree, we decide(as planned for some years)to have a baby. So we call our friend who is an agent for Blue Cross/Sheild to get my wife coverage. After filling out the application, and submitting it we were informed 2 months later that she was denied due to a pre-existing condition. We were baffled. I asked our "friend" well we ll just submit another application to another HIP, he then informed us that the top 10 companies all use the same database and that we would be denied by all of them.

What was the pre-existing condition you ask?
It was a leep paid for by blue cross in 2004.

We can afford to have a baby on insurance, but not be able to have a baby without.

Due to profit margins these companies are denying basic human rights to americans. Denying my wife and I a family. These bastards need to rot in deepest shit-hole of hell.

We checked some other options, but our income is too high and we dont qualify.

I ve decided to take the $30,000(it would only cost $3 - $5000 if i had insurance) hit and have a baby with out insurance.

I support Obama's health reform bills especially making it illegal to deny coverage for pre-existing conditions. i hope you do too.

liberalism101
Newbie

Joined: 20 Jan 2010
Posts: 1

Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:49 pm Post subject: Healthcare can be a right

Actually capitalism, health care can be a right.

Sure you can have your own healthcare like a cell

phone or ipod, but what if you can't pay for it.

Sure, there would be higher taxes, but think of all

the benefits you get. It's possible to live without

a cell phone or an ipod, but not healthcare.

Just Because
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:34 pm Post subject:

Have any of you ever been to the emergency room, but were denied treatment because you couldn’t show proof that you could pay for their services? IT DOESN’T HAPPEN. Not in this country. This is part of the reason why Mexican Nationals come across the border illegally. We cannot deny medical treatment to individuals that need it.

In Texas, we have a serious problem with illegal immigration. Drug cartels based in Mexico have made their way over the border, and now border towns that use to prosper from tourism are warzones for the cartels. Our immigration problems do not stop there, but extend to our hospitals. When you go to the hospital emergency room you will find people who are bleeding, battered, and bruised. What you will also find are Mexican Nationals who clot up the emergency room with sniffles and other non-emergency related issues. Naturally, when you provide services for someone who has no intention of paying you it puts a strain on you financially. Hospitals are left with no choice, but to increase the price for services performed on their paying customers to close the gap. So, if medical care increases in cost (can you guess what is next???), then insurance premiums will rise in response. This is simple business management.

My point is that you cannot blame the severity of the issue on just one factor. If we add the cost of frivolous lawsuits to the mix, then we are talking about some real numbers that have an effect on the price for you and me.

You can lay the blame on those mean old healthcare providers with their fat wallets and mean faces all you want, but there is more at fault for the situation than what you are willing to acknowledge. Do not allow your political ideology to get in the way of your assessment of the issue.

Passing Through
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:46 am Post subject: Healthcare

Our "rights" are whatever we - as a society - say they are. For example, we say that a person has the right to bear arms. Ok, fine. But that doesn't mean they have the right to install a nuclear missile silo in their front yard. It's not like Moses came down from the mountain with "Thou shalt not have nukes" written in stone. This is just a rule that we made up.

And you have to admit, it seems like a pretty good rule.

The idea is to balance the rights of the individual with the rights of the group as a whole. That's what living in a society is all about - striking a good balance between the two. If we simply gave individuals unlimited rights, with no social responsibilities, then we might as well not have any laws at all. On the other hand, if we ignore all individual freedoms in favor of the group, then we become hopeless, robotic drones.

The question is: where do we draw the line?

I'm curious, Capitalist... what do you think about basic education? Do you consider that a right? Or should that only be available to people who can afford it? Would you prefer to live in a country with no public education system at all?

The reason we have public education isn't just because it's the "moral" or "humanitarian" thing to do. It's because societies that don't have public education systems are total hell holes. It's just better for everyone if people are at least basically educated.

We have all kinds of public (i.e. socialist) programs that make living in America pretty freaking nice. For example:

I could go on and on. These are all non-capitalist, socialist programs. And none of them are automatically "rights". They're just things we decided to do in order to make life better.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking capitalism. Capitalism is great. A few years ago I decided to start my own business. I basically just came up with an idea and created it out of thin air, and nobody tried to stop me. I worked hard, and now I'm paying the bills doing what I love. To me, that is the measure of free market enterprise. If you are free to start a business and pursue your dreams, then you are obviously living in a good place.

At the same time, I realize that I am lucky to live in a society that rewards my talents, and I don't mind giving back to the group. And I can think of few better ways to contribute than with healthcare.

I myself don't have kids, but if I can pay a little extra so that someone else's kids can get regular checkups, then I'm more than happy to do that. I really don't care about whether or not it's a "right" or a "privilege" or whatever.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, Cap. In fact, I'm kind of agreeing with you. Healthcare isn't a right - but then neither is anything else.

I will say this, though: the idea that capitalism - by itself, with no controls - will automatically create the most optimum healthcare system... well, that's just plain crazy. If you think these giant corporations won't completely screw you any chance they get, and let you die a slow and painful death just to save a few bucks, then you are living in fantasy land.

jsciscoe
Newbie

Joined: 06 Apr 2010
Posts: 2

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:14 pm Post subject:

Why does everyone believe they "deserve" something just because it is available? People should realize that the reason that healthcare and medicine has advanced so much is becuase it is a BUSINESS. Pharmaceutical companies spend ridiculous amounts of money for research to make money themselves which is just fine because these medicines can benefit us. But these companies are not a charity. If someone wishes to reap the benefits off so much technology, then I'm sorry but you have to pay the price. If you dont want to do that then move to another country where healthcare is "free" (paid by taxing everyone) but it will be nowhere near the quality we have here. Healthcare is like any good or service (just like a cell phone). And yes, competition between private insurance companies would drive the prices down but it would never be cheap and it shouldnt be because healthcare is very expensive to provide. If heathcare is made a "right" controlled by the government then yes it would be good on the argument that everyone would be covered, but we can kiss quality healthcare goodbye. Sorry but the government will save every penny they possibly can and they do not really care about your health. You think finding healthcare is hard now, just wait until you have to go through the government to get a transplant in 20 years.

cb20476
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:28 pm Post subject:

covering pre-existing conditions is going too far. i work for an insurance company. health insurance is a lot like life insurance. people want it, but dont want to pay for it, but when they get sick or ill enough to die, they want it. i couldnt sell a 250,000 policy to someone who weighs 350 lbs, or one who has had multiple heart attacks. insurance companies premiums and the issuing of policies is based on the risk that the individual is to the company. why let somone pay you 500.00 for two months and turn around and spend 350,000 treating them for something they had wrong with them before they came to you? insurance companies would lose money, go bankrupt, and then none of us would have any coverage.

Toxic
Forum Elder

Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1568

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:34 am Post subject:

cb20476 wrote:

That's why any insurance reform would require mandated coverage. If everyone waits until they need it, risk isn't divided equally and responsible insurance owners and companies are hurt.

However, I don't think the issue is as simple as you make it. People that want to pay into the system but are denied because it is determined that they create too much end up screwed.

Two Paper
Newbie

Joined: 22 May 2010
Posts: 16

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:32 am Post subject:

This isn't a simple matter at all. Somehow even immigration got mixed up. The biggest problem is that Health Care is a business. The rights suggested as our nation's core of belief include the right to life. Despite everything else in the world, a healthy life is perhaps the most important guarantee that should be given to US citizens. But, doctors that play the game as is only make money and benefit the rich. The physicians that don't sell out are screwed for trying their best. I say take the pressure off of the insurance companies. Let them insure the people that choose their service, and provide non-profit, population-funded medical care for the regular check-ups (to [u]prevent[/u] illness and save a lot of money in the long run) and serious issues (which are up to debate, and the insurance companies can survive for it). If this is done right, and if we cross our fingers for free education, we citizens could be able to replace statistics on the unemployed with pharmaceuticals that ease more people than spend money to advertise.

This doesn't mean that the capitalism that drives innovation must be dismantled. Let's have both - squeeze the most out of the ingenious and fill the pool with the healthy and intelligent. If it is capitalism that makes US the number one competitor in the world, could the federal government take up space in the market for medical technology with public interest in mind? Would it be worth smaller government elsewhere in order to guarantee health and maybe even free education? I'm no economist, but just as unemployment benefits assist the laid-off to rejoin the workforce, spending budget on education provides a superior workforce for the future, and spending for the right to health lets everyone be the best they can, right? I'm sure we can use our government to get all of us off the wheel, running for the cheese. The States are a country with high standards, it seems natural.

ArmedStoner
Newbie

Joined: 07 Jul 2010
Posts: 2

Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Health Care is NOT a Right

Health care is a good. It is in limited supply. I want health care to be available to the most people at the lowest price, which is precisely why I oppose government interference in health care.

LOL!!! So if we made an insurance pool of all 300 million of us (Americans) and set this pool up as nonprofit corporation, Americans wouldn't be getting "health care to be available to the most people at the lowest price?" You may reevaluate your position, "which is precisely why I oppose government interference in health care."

Also,"And don't try to tell me that health care in the US is currently free market," is the market free when insurance is publicly traded on the stock market which promotes a need for large profits; not very smart to have a system that is limited to either promoting low costs (less claims), or more revenue (higher monthly payments). It also isn't acceptable to have insurance empires build new skyscrapers ever 20 years as a write off. Profiteering with money that could have been better used for someone with medical needs. A smart society make the most of its capital. Call it socialism! Some things in a country are better off that way, like our roads, highways, police, firemen, military, some utilities, our grid, levees, dams , bridges etc; why not add health care?

One more thing, "the US government spends more on health care per capita than any other country in the world," no shit? Well maybe they should do something about it, like redistributing wasted profits that were initially meant to be spent on peoples health.

I'm a firm supporter of the free market and capitalism in almost every current market, but there are some markets better off socialized, healthcare is one of them.

Theospeak1
Newbie

Joined: 12 May 2008
Posts: 10

Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:37 pm Post subject:

The real problem that needs to be addressed is the swiss cheese that health care laws have become, and the fact that when you pay for medical care you're paying three or four separate industries instead of just one - insurance, legal, health, government bureaucracy, etc.

The Democrat's plan doesn't address these issues. Instead, it takes the current broken system and sets it in tax-payer paid-for stone. And we can't afford it right now; we're already flat broke as a nation.

If we really want to address the health care crisis, we've got to vastly simplify health law, allow true cross-state competition, and kick insurance, legal and government bureaucracy as far out of the equation as possible.

Oh, and we have to control our borders.

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