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jusdeadphunky
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 2222
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 Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| cornopean wrote: | | jusdeadphunky wrote: | | cornopean wrote: | | Quote: | | what about the cancer and AIDS patients that can not afford to purchase these drugs and have to sit back and have their health deteriorate knowing that something can be done but they do not have the money to do it. this is what i am talking about. |
I too think of this situation. but I am certain that it is not the drug company's responsibility to make sure that everyone has access to their drugs. they design them and sell them.......but they are no more responsible for making sure everyone has them then GM is responsible for making sure that everyone has a good-running car. |
a good running car is not a basic human right (or necessity). i try to live my life doing what is right and being humble and not taking things into the point of excess. no it is not the responsibility of the pharma company, but when will the line be drawn? we all know what the right thing to do would be. when is enough enough? how much money do you need to make especially when it is at the expense of human life? |
but drug companies aren't taking people's lives. they are saving them. and doing a better job at it then in any other period of human history. |
we do have the best health care than any other point in history. it is so good and efficient that health care has become a basic human right. drug companies do both, save and take lives. they basically have the power of god in their hands as did the monarchs, emporers, sultans, tsars and tribal leaders from back in the day whose decree could determine whether someone lived or was to be executed, would be allowed to live in freedom or captivity, who chose to not give people basic human rights including the right to free speech and education. people do not have to be denied the right to health care and if drugs and health care were available to everyone, the drug companies would still profit. |
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exton
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Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| jusdeadphunky wrote: | | they basically have the power of god in their hands as did the monarchs, emporers, sultans, tsars and tribal leaders from back in the day whose decree could determine whether someone lived or was to be executed, would be allowed to live in freedom or captivity, who chose to not give people basic human rights including the right to free speech and education. |
Oh, it's not quite THAT bad. Drug patents only last for some number of years (less than a decade), after which other companies can copy them and sell them on the cheap. Many generic drugs (the ones on which patents have expired) aren't too bad, as far as price goes. |
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jusdeadphunky
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 2222
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| exton wrote: | | jusdeadphunky wrote: | | they basically have the power of god in their hands as did the monarchs, emporers, sultans, tsars and tribal leaders from back in the day whose decree could determine whether someone lived or was to be executed, would be allowed to live in freedom or captivity, who chose to not give people basic human rights including the right to free speech and education. |
Oh, it's not quite THAT bad. Drug patents only last for some number of years (less than a decade), after which other companies can copy them and sell them on the cheap. Many generic drugs (the ones on which patents have expired) aren't too bad, as far as price goes. |
it is that bad when you need the drugs now and can't wait 10 years. plus i am pretty sure that at least in south africa, WTO agreements with the pharmaceutical companies make it illegal to manufacture and sell generic drugs. |
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cornopean
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | people do not have to be denied the right to health care and if drugs and health care were available to everyone, the drug companies would still profit. |
yes the drug companies would still profit. but they would profit less. and when the amount of profit goes down, then so does the incentive to produce and innovate in that particular sector of the market. this is exactly why it is so foolish to tax or in some way penalize the profits of the oil companies. if we want gas prices to come down, then we need those oil companies to drill like crazy which is exactly what they are doing. and the reason they are doing it is cuz there is the potential to make so much money in that sector. on the same token, if we want super-duper drugs that save lives in near miraculous ways, then we have to allow the research teams that develop these drugs to make a profit. big profits. that is why nearly all drug innovations now come from the US. cuz we are the only country left in the world that doesn't have some sort of universal health care. |
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cornopean
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3534
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| cornopean wrote: | | Quote: | | people do not have to be denied the right to health care and if drugs and health care were available to everyone, the drug companies would still profit. |
yes the drug companies would still profit. but they would profit less. and when the amount of profit goes down, then so does the incentive to produce and innovate in that particular sector of the market. this is exactly why it is so foolish to tax or in some way penalize the profits of the oil companies. if we want gas prices to come down, then we need those oil companies to drill like crazy which is exactly what they are doing. and the reason they are doing it is cuz there is the potential to make so much money in that sector. on the same token, if we want super-duper drugs that save lives in near miraculous ways, then we have to allow the research teams that develop these drugs to make a profit. big profits. that is why nearly all drug innovations now come from the US. cuz we are the only country left in the world that doesn't have some sort of universal health care. we don't penalize drug companies who make huge profits. |
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Lester
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Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| cornopean wrote: | | cornopean wrote: | | Quote: | | people do not have to be denied the right to health care and if drugs and health care were available to everyone, the drug companies would still profit. |
yes the drug companies would still profit. but they would profit less. and when the amount of profit goes down, then so does the incentive to produce and innovate in that particular sector of the market. this is exactly why it is so foolish to tax or in some way penalize the profits of the oil companies. if we want gas prices to come down, then we need those oil companies to drill like crazy which is exactly what they are doing. and the reason they are doing it is cuz there is the potential to make so much money in that sector. on the same token, if we want super-duper drugs that save lives in near miraculous ways, then we have to allow the research teams that develop these drugs to make a profit. big profits. that is why nearly all drug innovations now come from the US. cuz we are the only country left in the world that doesn't have some sort of universal health care. we don't penalize drug companies who make huge profits. |
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Do you think that maybe other countries have switched to universal health care because it is the most humane way to go and because they actually care about those under the poverty line? |
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cornopean
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3534
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Lester wrote: | | cornopean wrote: | | cornopean wrote: | | Quote: | | people do not have to be denied the right to health care and if drugs and health care were available to everyone, the drug companies would still profit. |
yes the drug companies would still profit. but they would profit less. and when the amount of profit goes down, then so does the incentive to produce and innovate in that particular sector of the market. this is exactly why it is so foolish to tax or in some way penalize the profits of the oil companies. if we want gas prices to come down, then we need those oil companies to drill like crazy which is exactly what they are doing. and the reason they are doing it is cuz there is the potential to make so much money in that sector. on the same token, if we want super-duper drugs that save lives in near miraculous ways, then we have to allow the research teams that develop these drugs to make a profit. big profits. that is why nearly all drug innovations now come from the US. cuz we are the only country left in the world that doesn't have some sort of universal health care. we don't penalize drug companies who make huge profits. |
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Do you think that maybe other countries have switched to universal health care because it is the most humane way to go and because they actually care about those under the poverty line? |
well how humane is it to stop drug innovation? who is going to develop the new drugs for the new diseases that are inevitably coming? there are tradeoffs. if you dont allow profits, you arent going to get new drugs and new procedures. |
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Lester
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Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| cornopean wrote: | | Lester wrote: | | cornopean wrote: | | cornopean wrote: | | Quote: | | people do not have to be denied the right to health care and if drugs and health care were available to everyone, the drug companies would still profit. |
yes the drug companies would still profit. but they would profit less. and when the amount of profit goes down, then so does the incentive to produce and innovate in that particular sector of the market. this is exactly why it is so foolish to tax or in some way penalize the profits of the oil companies. if we want gas prices to come down, then we need those oil companies to drill like crazy which is exactly what they are doing. and the reason they are doing it is cuz there is the potential to make so much money in that sector. on the same token, if we want super-duper drugs that save lives in near miraculous ways, then we have to allow the research teams that develop these drugs to make a profit. big profits. that is why nearly all drug innovations now come from the US. cuz we are the only country left in the world that doesn't have some sort of universal health care. we don't penalize drug companies who make huge profits. |
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Do you think that maybe other countries have switched to universal health care because it is the most humane way to go and because they actually care about those under the poverty line? |
well how humane is it to stop drug innovation? who is going to develop the new drugs for the new diseases that are inevitably coming? there are tradeoffs. if you dont allow profits, you arent going to get new drugs and new procedures. |
Thats simply untrue, think of all the innovation made by the military, a government cotrolled agency, |
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Anym
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Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 2562
Location: Jersey
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| cornopean wrote: |
well how humane is it to stop drug innovation? who is going to develop the new drugs for the new diseases that are inevitably coming? there are trade offs. if you don't allow profits, you aren't going to get new drugs and new procedures. |
Those giant pharma companies don't actually invent the drugs. Most innovations in the field on drugs have been done by smaller labs or those liberal think tanks normal people call universities. In the last 20 years alone 1000 new drugs have been made by big pharma most of them sex drugs, cold/allergie medications, you know more of the same crap. If we started universal health care and pumped some more cash into places that actually invent new cures then we might get some real drug innovation. |
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cornopean
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3534
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Thats simply untrue, think of all the innovation made by the military, a government cotrolled agency, |
but the military is not doing the innovating....private companies are doing it for the military. |
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exton
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Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| cornopean wrote: | | Quote: | | Thats simply untrue, think of all the innovation made by the military, a government cotrolled agency, |
but the military is not doing the innovating....private companies are doing it for the military. |
And even so, i don't think that inventing new ways to kill people is a good comparison. |
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jusdeadphunky
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 2222
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| cornopean wrote: | | Lester wrote: | | cornopean wrote: | | cornopean wrote: | | Quote: | | people do not have to be denied the right to health care and if drugs and health care were available to everyone, the drug companies would still profit. |
yes the drug companies would still profit. but they would profit less. and when the amount of profit goes down, then so does the incentive to produce and innovate in that particular sector of the market. this is exactly why it is so foolish to tax or in some way penalize the profits of the oil companies. if we want gas prices to come down, then we need those oil companies to drill like crazy which is exactly what they are doing. and the reason they are doing it is cuz there is the potential to make so much money in that sector. on the same token, if we want super-duper drugs that save lives in near miraculous ways, then we have to allow the research teams that develop these drugs to make a profit. big profits. that is why nearly all drug innovations now come from the US. cuz we are the only country left in the world that doesn't have some sort of universal health care. we don't penalize drug companies who make huge profits. |
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Do you think that maybe other countries have switched to universal health care because it is the most humane way to go and because they actually care about those under the poverty line? |
well how humane is it to stop drug innovation? who is going to develop the new drugs for the new diseases that are inevitably coming? there are tradeoffs. if you dont allow profits, you arent going to get new drugs and new procedures. |
the u.s. government funds a lot of medical research. if the world as a whole would get together, it could be funded and innovation would continue. the only difference would be that the motive would be to help people not for profit. |
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Lester
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Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| cornopean wrote: | | Quote: | | Thats simply untrue, think of all the innovation made by the military, a government cotrolled agency, |
but the military is not doing the innovating....private companies are doing it for the military. |
Not always, just in recent years because of the huuuge debt the government has. |
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exton
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Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| Lester wrote: | | cornopean wrote: |
but the military is not doing the innovating....private companies are doing it for the military. |
Not always, just in recent years because of the huuuge debt the government has. |
No, he's quite right. In the united states of america, military innovation is actually done by private companies. That's where all our weapons and technology comes from. It's been that way since wwII, at the very least.
That's what people mean when they say "military-industrial complex". It's the combination of the military and the private manufacturers that make the stuff they use.
It's actually a pretty substantial problem. We spend a lot of money on weapons development, and that creates a lot of pressure to use the weapons - after all, what good is shelling out billions of dollars for shiny new guns that will never be used? You'd think congress might just stop funding it, but you'd be wrong; the pentagon is good at convincing people (including itself) that it "needs" these things, and the private industries have a strong lobbying base. |
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Lester
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Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| What do they do at all those army bases then? The manhattan project wasn't privatised, do they really trust private companies to make nukes?? |
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