Brief on Iranian weapons in Iraq

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Brief on Iranian weapons in Iraq

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exton
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:19 am Post subject:

cornopean wrote:

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Good and evil are not a measure of utility, they're a moral judgment.
How would i measure a nation's "usefulness" to the world?

I agree. countries that act morally are always far more useful than countries that dont.

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Well, that depends - just what do you mean by "usefulness".

usefulness means helping people live better more happy lives.

You're a utilitarian?

I don't like that definition, personally. I think of it more in terms of "usefulness means enhancing the survival and prosperity of the human species".

It seems like useless distinction, but it isn't. "Happiness" is a subjective measure, and so isn't particularly useful for determinging something that should be an objective measure.

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It was, and it still is.

It's easy to label hitler as evil, but that doesn't give you any idea as to what was at work when he did what he did.

what little of this I understand I will only say that labeling hitler or anyone as evil means that they are going to bring pain and devestation to people's lives. other than that, I don't know what you are getting at. do you like argueing in some kind of fog? you excel at creating ambiguity where there is none.

That's the problem. There exists, in real life, a great deal of ambiguity. Uncertainty abounds. And that's why "good and evil" dichotomies are both appealing and bad; they eliminate ambiguity at the cost of creating something that is not an accurate representation of reality.

What i mean about hitler is that, well, yes, it's accurate to say he's going to do more harm than good.

But that knowledge, in and of itself, is almost useless.

Ideally, not only do we want to stop hitler would-be's from causing damage, but we want to prevent those people from ever happening in the first place. A society that develops no hitlers will have no problems with hitlers.

And to do that, we must understand why hitler was who he was, and why he was able to do what he did.

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well this is silly. granted even Hitler probably fed his dog and paid his house maids. he might have even helped an old lady across the street at some point. the warrant for labeling him evil is that his bad actions far outweighed his good actions.
we say a person has a bad character when his bad habits outweigh his good ones. its not saying that all his habits are bad. its saying that his bad habits predominate over his good habits.
if you fail to discern this, you will probably get raped or mugged or worse.

And like i said, you lose information in labeling people that way.

If you concentrate only on a person's evil habits, you'll fail to understand that person.

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"Good" and "evil" are dismissive terms more than anything. They make it easy to justify one's actions without having to think much.

such sophisticated thinking here. this could only come from a university professor. many country bumpkin farmers are wiser than this even tho they are likely far less intelligent.

Huh?

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well you also need to recognize that labeling things good and evil is not labeling every member of the class evil. To say Iran is evil is to say that the people and govt of Iran generally favor a mode of governing and a way of life that is evil.

It's not as clear cut as that. Not at all.

And while i'm inclined to think that the iranian government isn't a particularly good one, i think my reasons for that are different from your own. What, exactly, about iran bothers you?

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why do you think the west had such a hard time convincing the arabs that slavery was wrong?

I wasn't aware that they did, but if i had to offer a guess as to why this was the case, i'd say that it's for the same reason that Americans had such a hard time convincing each other of it.

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and why today the African nations continue to practice prostitution with the consent of the leadership?

What's wrong with prostitution?
There's nothing inherently bad about prostitution.

I have no doubt though that, in africa, it's only making things worse.

I'm inclined to agree that too much of africa is given over to barbarism.

That is not *because* of "evil", however. As you've characterized it, evil is determined by the degree of barbarism, not the other way around.

The reasons that the africa continent is a mess are many and varied. It's a topic in and of itself.

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it is naive to think that labeling a country evil means labeling its every citizen evil.

Well then it's fortunate that i don't think that way, eh?

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that is a clever subterfuge for evading what everyone recognizes intuitively. dangers and threats are real and only university professors fail to discern them.

What's with this bitterness towards university professors? Have you gone to college?

Lester
Forum Elder

Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:34 am Post subject:

cornopean wrote:

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No. Every person is the hero of his own story. Good and evil are subjective.

ok....was Hitler good or evil then? he thot he was good....so was he good?

In his own story? Of course he wasn't evil, he did do quite a bit of good for his people, the arian race flourished, and if he had won the war, do you think anyone woul;d be calling him evil? No, we would be having this conversation talking about whether or not Roosevelt was evil.

Anym
Forum Elder

Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 2562
Location: Jersey

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject:

cornopean wrote:

haha! you don't think China was in control of Vietnam after we left??![/quote]
Just like a pubs to take only half a quote the rest of it said China invaded and Vietnam kicked them out or do you not now your world history? One of the major fuckups of the Bush administration is that there going after Al-Sadr who is the foremost Shiite Iraqi nationalist and not the Iraqi Shiites who want to make Iraq Iran2. But hey you guys probably don't even know the difference between Shiites, Sunnis, or Kurds. Finally China is not in control they have influence just like the U.S. has influence.

cornopean
Forum Elder

Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3534

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject:

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You're a utilitarian?

No I am not, but I am for the purposes of this discussion. good point tho.

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I don't like that definition, personally. I think of it more in terms of "usefulness means enhancing the survival and prosperity of the human species".

I will accept that definition.

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I think I understand what you are saying and I agree that some culture are more evil than some others. but some cultures are so evil that the only solution is to destroy them. I think Iran falls into this category. (not every single Iranian) NAZI germany and imperial Japan were other examples.

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Ideally, not only do we want to stop hitler would-be's from causing damage, but we want to prevent those people from ever happening in the first place. A society that develops no hitlers will have no problems with hitlers.

what policy changes would you propose to keep hitler types from developing?

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And like i said, you lose information in labeling people that way.

If you concentrate only on a person's evil habits, you'll fail to understand that person.

I agree that evil is not a comprehensive description of anyone. but evil is a characteristic that we must recognize in order to survive. if women dont have a "sense" for dangerous circumstances (i.e. are able to recognize evil) they will likely to fall victim to rape or worse. we must be able to recognize evil and deal with it if we want to survive.

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Huh?

pardon my invective. I was a little off that day.

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And while i'm inclined to think that the iranian government isn't a particularly good one, i think my reasons for that are different from your own. What, exactly, about iran bothers you?

basically just all the stuff in our first 20 amendments is regarded by them with disdain.

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I wasn't aware that they did, but if i had to offer a guess as to why this was the case, i'd say that it's for the same reason that Americans had such a hard time convincing each other of it.

but in america we had the debate, the war, and finally emancipation. In the Arab states, they don't even discuss it. they were dumbfounded when westerners told them that slavery was wrong. many Islamic types continue to practice slavery. they don't even get it. they have no idea of what liberty means.

exton
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:10 am Post subject:

cornopean wrote:

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what policy changes would you propose to keep hitler types from developing?

This isn't one of those "big picture" sorts of things. It's really just a matter of detecting homicidal sociopaths early and educating the public against marketing and propaganda. Teaching them to think, in other words.

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Evil is a moral judgment. Danger is not. I fail to see your point.

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basically just all the stuff in our first 20 amendments is regarded by them with disdain.

By the iranian people? You'd be surprised.

But none the less, i don't see how that qualifies as evil.

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You asked why it was so hard. It really is for the same reason that it was so hard for americans; it's a deeply ingrained cultural practice.

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they don't even get it. they have no idea of what liberty means.

They disagree with your idea of liberty just as you disagree with mine (to a degree). "Liberty" isn't one single, simple concept; it's changed quite a bit over time, and varies depending on where you are and who you talk to.