Anym
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Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 2562
Location: Jersey
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 Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| cornopean wrote: |
so you think the Iranians are pretty decent people? do christians have civil rights in Iran? what rights do gays have in Iran?
No but oddly enough they did in Iraq under the rule Saddam Hussein so does that make Saddam a good guy? You don't want gays to have rights so are you evil? Ann Coulter doesn't want gays or women to have rights is she Satan?
but what Churchill had that no one else had was the ability to recognize evil. he did; and no one else did. that was his greatness. |
Well if no body else recognized Hitler was evil then why did FDR and Stalin go after him? And why didn't Churchill realize Hitler was evil when he realized his book or why didn't he realize Stalin was just as evil as Hitler? Explain that. |
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Lester
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Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| jusdeadphunky wrote: | | Lester wrote: | | jusdeadphunky wrote: | | exton wrote: | | jusdeadphunky wrote: |
i am not okay with anyone having nuclear weapons, but until there is worldwide disarmament (or at the very least until israel gives up its nukes), i support iran's right to defend herself.
of course they are seeking nukes but so what? |
The more nuclear weapons there are, the greater the likelihood of a nuclear holocaust. Nukes are the sort of thing where, if one person starts shooting, everyone starts shooting. And then we all die. |
well yea, but until someone (i.e. a nation that has the capability to blow the world up multiple times) decides to address this by calling for the destruction of their nukes, i have to say, what makes it that we are so superior that we have the right to have that sort of power but the little guys don't? |
You guys have lots of money and won all those other wars?? I think thats the reason purported. |
i dig what you are saying and it incorporates into it seeming to me that it is more of a superiority complex and the notion that the u.s. has some sort of a moral high ground making us the only ones who should be trusted to hold the keys to destroy the entire world. and that the rest of the world should be happy to let us retain that control. |
Definately, and it's not just America, we spent so much time during the cold war and stuff talking about the axis of evil and how they have no souls and blah blah blah that nowdays we just take for granted what was blatant and horrificly unfounded propaganda. |
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exton
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Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| jusdeadphunky wrote: |
i agree with you but at the same time i must point out why other countries feel the need to have nuclear weapons, and i do not blame them. |
Oh i understand perfectly how they feel. I just don't really care, because they may desire things that work against the best interests of humanity as a whole. |
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Lester
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Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| exton wrote: | | jusdeadphunky wrote: |
i agree with you but at the same time i must point out why other countries feel the need to have nuclear weapons, and i do not blame them. |
Oh i understand perfectly how they feel. I just don't really care, because they may desire things that work against the best interests of humanity as a whole. |
Again I say a Lester/Exton ticket for global domination would be a great thing. |
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jusdeadphunky
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| exton wrote: | | jusdeadphunky wrote: |
i agree with you but at the same time i must point out why other countries feel the need to have nuclear weapons, and i do not blame them. |
Oh i understand perfectly how they feel. I just don't really care, because they may desire things that work against the best interests of humanity as a whole. |
i understand this, but so do we. just look at iraq, just look at afghanistan, just look at north korea, just look at sudan, just look at columbia, just look at palestine, just look at china. i mean those are all excellent examples about how the u.s. runs around the world and does what is in its best interest and that which is not in the best interests of humanity as a whole. tyranny needs to be able to be defended against. i mean fuck it. let iran have nukes. the consequences of war with iran are real, they are not hypothetical. the only way to deter them is with diplomatic ties and trade agreements between the u.s. and iran that benefit iran as much as the ones in place benefit saudi arabia. the u.s. is not going to change its stance on israel. israel is not going to disarm. but sadly this will not happen because it will benefit u.s. corporations more just to take iran over. |
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Lester
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Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| jusdeadphunky wrote: | | exton wrote: | | jusdeadphunky wrote: |
i agree with you but at the same time i must point out why other countries feel the need to have nuclear weapons, and i do not blame them. |
Oh i understand perfectly how they feel. I just don't really care, because they may desire things that work against the best interests of humanity as a whole. |
i understand this, but so do we. just look at iraq, just look at afghanistan, just look at north korea, just look at sudan, just look at columbia, just look at palestine, just look at china. i mean those are all excellent examples about how the u.s. runs around the world and does what is in its best interest and that which is not in the best interests of humanity as a whole. tyranny needs to be able to be defended against. i mean fuck it. let iran have nukes. the consequences of war with iran are real, they are not hypothetical. the only way to deter them is with diplomatic ties and trade agreements between the u.s. and iran that benefit iran as much as the ones in place benefit saudi arabia. the u.s. is not going to change its stance on israel. israel is not going to disarm. but sadly this will not happen because it will benefit u.s. corporations more just to take iran over. |
Lets ust get this globalization over and done with, all this social darwinism in politics is reducing what little optimism i have left. |
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cornopean
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3534
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Good and evil are concepts that are far too simplistic to capture the true nature of the forces at work. |
yes libs are always saying things are too simplistic. well do you have a better paradigm for measuring a country's usefulness in this world? I say that a country that hangs girls for premarital sex is evil. a country that does not provide all its non-criminal citizens with equal civil rights is evil. that is Iran and, as far as I know, most of the population agrees that this is how things should be. in the US, you would have to search far and wide for someone who doesn't think every non-criminal person deserves equal rights.
oh...and.....our leaders don't generally celebrate genocide against certain nation states we don't like.
keep insisting that good/evil is too simplistic and you are going to get spanked by evil right between the eyes. I am sure Neville Chamberlain thot that it was too simplistic to simply label Hitler "evil". then Hitler invaded Poland and suddenly people recognized that Churchill was right all along. Good and evil is a necessary distinction for survival in this world. |
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cornopean
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Well if no body else recognized Hitler was evil then why did FDR and Stalin go after him? |
FDR did not go after Hitler until after the Pearl Harbor attack. and Stalin........?? he was every bit as evil as Hitler if not worse.
| Quote: | | And why didn't Churchill realize Hitler was evil when he realized his book or why didn't he realize Stalin was just as evil as Hitler? Explain that. |
Churchill did recognize Hitler was evil and a real threat from reading Mein Kampf. and Hitler did recognize Stalin as evil and wanted to carry on the war against Stalin. but he was voted out of office directly after WW2 was over.
Soon, though, his [churchill's] attention was drawn to the rise of Adolf Hitler and the dangers of Germany's rearmament. For a time, he was a lone voice calling on Britain to strengthen itself to counter the belligerence of Germany.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....n_the_wars
here the link showing how soon Churchill was voted out after WW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....rld_War_II |
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exton
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Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| cornopean wrote: | | Quote: | | Good and evil are concepts that are far too simplistic to capture the true nature of the forces at work. |
yes libs are always saying things are too simplistic. well do you have a better paradigm for measuring a country's usefulness in this world? |
Good and evil are not a measure of utility, they're a moral judgment.
How would i measure a nation's "usefulness" to the world?
Well, that depends - just what do you mean by "usefulness".
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I say that a country that hangs girls for premarital sex is evil. a country that does not provide all its non-criminal citizens with equal civil rights is evil. that is Iran and, as far as I know, most of the population agrees that this is how things should be. in the US, you would have to search far and wide for someone who doesn't think every non-criminal person deserves equal rights.
oh...and.....our leaders don't generally celebrate genocide against certain nation states we don't like.
keep insisting that good/evil is too simplistic and you are going to get spanked by evil right between the eyes. I am sure Neville Chamberlain thot that it was too simplistic to simply label Hitler "evil". |
It was, and it still is.
It's easy to label hitler as evil, but that doesn't give you any idea as to what was at work when he did what he did.
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then Hitler invaded Poland and suddenly people recognized that Churchill was right all along. Good and evil is a necessary distinction for survival in this world. |
No, it's a security blanket for simpletons. Any attempt to try to categorize all forms of human thought and behavior into a simple and arbitrary dichotomy will end up losing a great deal of information and understanding.
"Good" and "evil" are dismissive terms more than anything. They make it easy to justify one's actions without having to think much.
For example, "why did we invade country x?"
Saying "because they're evil" in response ot that basically just ends the conversation. Any attempt to get a rational understanding of the matter will fail with someone who forces the entire world into one of two categories. |
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Lester
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Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| cornopean wrote: | | Quote: | | Good and evil are concepts that are far too simplistic to capture the true nature of the forces at work. |
yes libs are always saying things are too simplistic. well do you have a better paradigm for measuring a country's usefulness in this world? I say that a country that hangs girls for premarital sex is evil. a country that does not provide all its non-criminal citizens with equal civil rights is evil. that is Iran and, as far as I know, most of the population agrees that this is how things should be. in the US, you would have to search far and wide for someone who doesn't think every non-criminal person deserves equal rights.
oh...and.....our leaders don't generally celebrate genocide against certain nation states we don't like.
keep insisting that good/evil is too simplistic and you are going to get spanked by evil right between the eyes. I am sure Neville Chamberlain thot that it was too simplistic to simply label Hitler "evil". then Hitler invaded Poland and suddenly people recognized that Churchill was right all along. Good and evil is a necessary distinction for survival in this world. |
What about all those people in guantanamo that were sent there from the U.S.?? Quite a few of them are non-criminals who have lost their civil rights. Why exactly have they lost them? Because you have labeled them as 'evil', same reason other governments oppress people. Do you think Hitler woke up in the morning and thought; "You know what? I'm going to be an evil dictator this week, and a bastard ontop of that, actually screw it, that will be my new personality trait, 'evil'."
No. Every person is the hero of his own story. Good and evil are subjective. |
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Anym
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Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 2562
Location: Jersey
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Anyway besides getting sidetracked and proving pubs are stuck in the 1940's this s really just Vietnam repeating itself. In the 60's and 70's there was the idea that if we left Vietnam communist China would invade and take over. They did invade a short while after we left and China learned the same lesson we did Vietnam would serve no foreign master. The same will happen in Iraq. We will leave Mahmoud will invade (probably against his peoples wishes) and his army will be torn to pieces, The one argument I always hear from pubs against NAFTA of the U.N. is that in decreases Americas sovereignty well I'm pretty sure having invading troops stuck in Iraq is decreasing there sovereignty so lest stand down so that they can stand up. |
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cornopean
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Good and evil are not a measure of utility, they're a moral judgment.
How would i measure a nation's "usefulness" to the world? |
I agree. countries that act morally are always far more useful than countries that dont.
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Well, that depends - just what do you mean by "usefulness". |
usefulness means helping people live better more happy lives.
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It was, and it still is.
It's easy to label hitler as evil, but that doesn't give you any idea as to what was at work when he did what he did. |
what little of this I understand I will only say that labeling hitler or anyone as evil means that they are going to bring pain and devestation to people's lives. other than that, I don't know what you are getting at. do you like argueing in some kind of fog? you excel at creating ambiguity where there is none.
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No, it's a security blanket for simpletons. Any attempt to try to categorize all forms of human thought and behavior into a simple and arbitrary dichotomy will end up losing a great deal of information and understanding. |
well this is silly. granted even Hitler probably fed his dog and paid his house maids. he might have even helped an old lady across the street at some point. the warrant for labeling him evil is that his bad actions far outweighed his good actions.
we say a person has a bad character when his bad habits outweigh his good ones. its not saying that all his habits are bad. its saying that his bad habits predominate over his good habits.
if you fail to discern this, you will probably get raped or mugged or worse.
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"Good" and "evil" are dismissive terms more than anything. They make it easy to justify one's actions without having to think much. |
such sophisticated thinking here. this could only come from a university professor. many country bumpkin farmers are wiser than this even tho they are likely far less intelligent.
| Quote: | For example, "why did we invade country x?"
Saying "because they're evil" in response ot that basically just ends the conversation. Any attempt to get a rational understanding of the matter will fail with someone who forces the entire world into one of two categories. |
well you also need to recognize that labeling things good and evil is not labeling every member of the class evil. To say Iran is evil is to say that the people and govt of Iran generally favor a mode of governing and a way of life that is evil. why do you think the west had such a hard time convincing the arabs that slavery was wrong? and why today the African nations continue to practice prostitution with the consent of the leadership?
it is naive to think that labeling a country evil means labeling its every citizen evil. that is a clever subterfuge for evading what everyone recognizes intuitively. dangers and threats are real and only university professors fail to discern them. |
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cornopean
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3534
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | No. Every person is the hero of his own story. Good and evil are subjective. |
ok....was Hitler good or evil then? he thot he was good....so was he good? |
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cornopean
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 3534
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Anyway besides getting sidetracked and proving pubs are stuck in the 1940's this s really just Vietnam repeating itself. In the 60's and 70's there was the idea that if we left Vietnam communist China would invade and take over. |
haha! you don't think China was in control of Vietnam after we left??! |
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jusdeadphunky
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 2222
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| cornopean wrote: | | Quote: | | Anyway besides getting sidetracked and proving pubs are stuck in the 1940's this s really just Vietnam repeating itself. In the 60's and 70's there was the idea that if we left Vietnam communist China would invade and take over. |
haha! you don't think China was in control of Vietnam after we left??! |
influential and control are two different things, so no. what are you advocating? would you like it if the u.s. still had to maintain tens if not hundreds of thousands of troops in vietnam for the past three decades and be paying for it all on credit? |
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