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MissLisa
Not a Newbie
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 56
Location: Virginia
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 Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| exton wrote: | | MissLisa wrote: | | what I do not understand is why you could possible think the things I see (as real for me) are dangerous. I find the things I have learned beautiful and life fullfilling.. so dangerous just doesn't make sense to me. But of course I cannot fathom it from your mind. |
Oh it's not that hard to understand.
Your thoughts are dangerous because you can vote.
It's not a problem when one person believes absurdities. But it definitely is a problem when that person brings her absurdities to the table when deciding public policy. |
Exton... good news.. I stopped voting after the 2000 election. I am not quite sure tho... how I could possibly decide public policy.
And if I could decide public policy, It would be for people to see the divine (or that part that all people are inherently good) within all people, and that each person reacts to their own world, in their own way, according to what they believe the world to be. If that is dangerous... man call me Ms Danger and I will own it.. I have seen way to many peoples lives positively changed... and not one negatively changed!! 
I would much prefer to help my neighbor than put up a fence and seperate myself from them. |
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MissLisa
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Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 56
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| CryxicKiller wrote: | Exton touched on an important part of the issue, however humorously. Your thoughts are dangerous because people can and have died over believing them. That is, they've died not over believing what you are saying specifically, but believing similar things: statements asserted without proof and without burden of proof. Essentially, you are touting these propositions as a priori, but doing so without appropriate justification. For an example, I'll again refer you to the priest in Nigeria who believed he could walk on water like Jesus. He tried it and drowned. This isn't purely an intellectual matter; there are real, veritable consequences with ideas, and I would urge us all to think carefully before spitting them out like you are. I apologize if it seems that I am being harsh in some way, but I have to stomp my foot on this.
It is not possible to turn an apple into an orange in the sense that you are speaking. It's not "my" science: what I am telling you are authentic laws that describe the materialistic behavior of our Universe. They cannot be violated; the laws of physics are not like human laws. Furthermore, it does not take a "mathematical" or "scientific" brain to understand some of this stuff. All you need is curiosity, which is an integral component of doing science in its own right.
Thanks for the compliment at the end. I return the sentiment. |
And I am telling you (smile) that your laws are not as authentic as you think they are. Remember, science is still discovering itself... and concludes there is still quite a bit they don't know. We can stomp our foot with each other here... with love of course 
I think, of all the people I know CryxicKiller, I could probably learn the most from you... scientifically speaking. I can tell you know science and the workings of the universe (scientifically speaking) much better than I do. And that is one of the reasons I stay engaged in a conversation with you. But if your mind is totally closed... dead set upon what you know, without saying ok.. I'll call you on it... and talk to me why matter cannot change into another form of matter.. then I cannot learn much in just being shut down. But you did make me aware of particles within particles.... I have not looked into the science end of things for several years... mostly when this world started becoming real to me... and back then I wanted to understand how all this was possible when just a moment before, it seemed pretty impossible.
I know you do not believe in life after life, the ability for our souls to continue on and continue to communicate with those still incarnated... so giving you my understandings, motivations... would be moot.
However, I will give you two real experiences this year.. and I am sure you can write them off to something other than what they are... but that's ok, its what we have come to do with each other for now.
I was in my truck, heading to pay a bill about 7 city blocks away from my house, with a red light on every block for miles... a straight shot for me to get there.
A song came on my CD player, the song Yellow by Coldplay which is a very special song for me that was threaded thru my beginning of my spiritual path. I was listening to this song with an absolute deep reverence of where I came from and where I am now... and remembering all the things I have learned and experienced over the last 6 years. You can say I got lost in that song for about 3.5 minutes.
When the next song came on I came out of my "reverent place" and looked around... I had no clue where I was. I was in a part of town I never was in before. I was well over 10 miles from my home... impossible even if every light was green along the way. I turned around and went back home... and it took about 20 minutes for me to reach back home... not one 3.5 minute song.
I was dumbfounded and couldn't understand how this could have possibly happened.
A couple of days later... I was sitting at place I like to go in a national park that is not too far from where I live. It is the only place I can find that gives me a sense of nature instead of concrete and storefronts.
I was sitting there... with a lot of life coming to play with me... I had 2 yellow butterflies playing around me, a cardinal, a robin (and this was just a few weeks ago, not even spring time here)... a fawn, a couple of squirrels... they were all out right around me... and I was in heaven... or what I call a deep state of reverence.
All of a sudden something was roaring overhead... as I looked up it was a helicopter. I instantly thought to myself.... You don't belong here. The moment I started to think that thought... I could see and feel my own energy (I will call it that since you do not believe in a soul, to me, it was my soul energy) stretch up from where I was sitting and the moment it connected to the helicopter... the helicopter was gone. No more noise, no more even being in the sky... from my physical view.
I got up from where I was sitting... and looked all around in the sky for this helicopter... it was no where. I was completely baffled by this experience... given what I have learned about physical life... this was impossible, even tho this is the very thing I want to learn... to work in harmony with energy (and the helicopter and even those who were in the helicopter are simply energy appearing as matter)... I could not fathom how it happened. I am still not totally clear on it really. The one thing I do understand about it and my previous experience that week.... it was the state of reverence that made it possible, that makes it all possible...
I just don't know (yet) how to be in that state of reverence at will. But I am learning... and will continue to learn!
Maybe by the time I have learned this with ease... I will have toughened up my outer skin for those (like you..smile) that will try and pound my experiences into the ground with disbelief...
Now these things... yes they could be dangerous.. given the current government we have!! 
Ok now that brings me up to a question for you... We know our government uses remote viewing within their makeup and spying abilities... do you believe in this ability (I do)... and if you do, how do you feel it happens?
I really am trying to learn from you my friend.. please know that. You may want to keep the spiritual aspect of life out of science... but I do not want to keep the scientific aspect out of spirit...
Ya know... the problem with orginized religion is that they all insist they are right. They have all the true information and shut down every other religion out there feeling there is nothing to learn from another idea. Maybe science has this same closed door policy? Just a thought tho..
Have a great day!!
Lisa
P.S. Jesus knew how to walk on water... he had a reverent relationship with all life (at the minutest particle level of life)... the other guy (whom I am not familiar with) should have started by working with puddles.. that was obviously his ego and not his spirit trying to walk on water. |
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CryxicKiller
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Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 332
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Lissa, a request, if I might: please no more personal experiences. They may be idiosyncratic and baffling to you, but unless you want a barrage from me, then please end this. You're not the only that has felt these things, but you are unique in the way that you interpret them. I cannot specifically explain what happened in the two scenarios you gave, but all that happened did so because of naturalistic phenomena. Simply because you cannot figure out what it was in naturalistic terms does not mean that something weird occurred; it just means you can't figure out. All this, however, relates to the idea that if you're willing to be drawn into this second world you've conceived, then transpirations in this world may or will appear strange.
I have good reasons for wanting to keep the spiritual out of science. Look at the centuries that alchemists wasted trying to turn base metals into gold, all because of spiritual reasons and some wantonly absurd readings of Plato. There used to be a time when it was unclear to know what one was talking about when one said "science." For example, an astronomer was just as likely to be an astrologer, and a chemist just as likely to be an alchemist. Those days are long gone, thankfully, booted by the rational thought of men like Bacon, Descartes, and Newton. Science grew to eliminate these types of spiritual systems that you support because they offered no tangible results. There's nothing that we can do with them nomologically, other than simply speak about them and their propositions. But that's useless: science wants results in the world where we live, results like cars, airplanes, computers, and cell phones. That's the true power of science beyond its ideological and philosophical rigor, which is a hundred times more powerful than your spiritualism anyway. Science does have a very stringent closed door policy on the issues that we're talking about, but it is a policy inspired by genuine reasons rather than the dogma and rhetoric of organized religions. It is also a policy inspired by history; science does not want to relive the abominations of the past, even though I fully realize and support the notion that we have to analyze the work of those past individuals in their own historical context. Despite that, however, I'm trying to tell you what science hopes to avoid. It hopes to avoid suggestions like yours. It does so because, whether you call it your spiritualism, astrology, alchemy, or creationism, it all falls under the huge umbrella of pseudoscience.
I cannot speak on your claim about the government. I do not know what you are referring to. |
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exton
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Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| MissLisa wrote: |
And I am telling you (smile) that your laws are not as authentic as you think they are. Remember, science is still discovering itself... and concludes there is still quite a bit they don't know. |
Incomplete knowledge is a poor excuse for making bad or impulsive decisions. |
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exton
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Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| MissLisa wrote: |
Exton... good news.. I stopped voting after the 2000 election. I am not quite sure tho... how I could possibly decide public policy. |
Every vote counts. Not very much, but it counts.
| Quote: |
And if I could decide public policy, It would be for people to see the divine (or that part that all people are inherently good) within all people, and that each person reacts to their own world, in their own way, according to what they believe the world to be. If that is dangerous... man call me Ms Danger and I will own it.. I have seen way to many peoples lives positively changed... and not one negatively changed!! |
Oh that's not what i'm worried about. Although hatred and bigotry still survive, most people really do wish others the best in life.
The problem is that most people don't know what to do about that. A very stupid decision, made with the best intentions, can be (and is) every bit as destructive as an intentionally evil decision.
The worst of it is that people are less inclined to second-guess stupid ideas, because they don't instinctively recoil from the intentions of such ideas. |
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exton
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Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| MissLisa wrote: |
Ya know... the problem with orginized religion is that they all insist they are right. They have all the true information and shut down every other religion out there feeling there is nothing to learn from another idea. Maybe science has this same closed door policy? Just a thought tho..
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It doesn't.
Science isn't just about coming up with good ideas - it's also about tearing down bad ones. An integral part of science is testing current knowledge for accuracy.
What qualifies as science, and what does not, is determined by a few simple guidelines.
Well, only one guideline, really:
It's got to be empirical.
There are other things involved, but that's the big one.
And the vast majority of what people consider to be "spiritual" is either not empirical, or IS empirical, but is actually very different from what believers would like it to be (example: near death experiences, love, etc). |
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CryxicKiller
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Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 332
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| exton wrote: | | The worst of it is that people are less inclined to second-guess stupid ideas, because they don't instinctively recoil from the intentions of such ideas. |
Well said! I am going to remember this one for a long time. |
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Johnguitars
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Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 48
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: Evilution |
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| exton wrote: | | Johnguitars wrote: |
Philosophically speaking, as science is an unfinished wor,k then science must always be wrong! |
That's obviously not true.
Your computer works, doesn't it? |
Not terribly well.
I have a great respect for science when it manifests itself into working technology. That for me is where it proves what it says.
I have a great disrespect for science when it says, "We cannot measure this phenomena therefore it does not exist." |
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exton
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Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:10 am Post subject: Re: Evilution |
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| Johnguitars wrote: |
I have a great disrespect for science when it says, "We cannot measure this phenomena therefore it does not exist." |
Well, no, science says "we cannot measure this phenomena, therefore we cannot study it empirically".
As science is empirical, it ignores that which cannot be measured.
I do, however, think that there's something to the sentiment that you say you dislike. It's a good question, i think: if you cannot measure something, in any way, then in what sense can it be said to exist at all? |
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CryxicKiller
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Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 332
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:38 am Post subject: |
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Exton, you oversimplified your description of how science works in your last post. There has been a heavy dose of deductive thinking and methodology in science over the twentieth century. Even now, things like M-theory deal with entities that cannot, as far as we know, be measured in principle. Fundamentally, however, I know what you mean.
Johnguitars, per exton, science says no such thing. That would be a logical and a nomological fallacy. That's a double whammy! |
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Oolon Colluphid
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 133
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:18 am Post subject: Re: Evilution |
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| Johnguitars wrote: |
I have a great disrespect for science when it says, "We cannot measure this phenomena therefore it does not exist." |
| exton wrote: | | I do, however, think that there's something to the sentiment that you say you dislike. It's a good question, i think: if you cannot measure something, in any way, then in what sense can it be said to exist at all? |
That statement reminds me of a "story" that religious circles tell to combat the problem with evil and the existance of God. [/quote]
The professor of a university challenged his students with this question; "Did God create everything that exists?"
A student answered bravely, "Yes, he did".
The professor then asked, "If God created everything, then he created evil. Since evil exists (as noticed by our own actions), so God is evil. The student couldn't respond to that statement causing the professor to conclude that he had "proved" that "belief in God" was a fairy tale, and therefore worthless.
Another student raised his hand and asked the professor, "May I pose a question? "
"Of course" answered the professor.
The young student stood up and asked: "Professor does Cold exist?"
The professor answered, "What kind of question is that? Of course the cold exists... haven't you ever been cold?"
The young student answered, "In fact sir, Cold does not exist. According to the laws of Physics, what we consider cold, in fact is the absence of heat. Anything is able to be studied as long as it transmits energy(heat). Absolute Zero is the total absence of heat, but cold does not exist. What we have done is create a term to describe how we feel if we don't have body heat or we are not hot."
"And, does Dark exist?", the student continued.
The professor answered "Of course.
This time the student responded, "Again you're wrong, Sir. Darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in fact simply the absence of light. Light can be studied, darkness can not. Darkness cannot be broken down. A simple ray of light tears the darkness and illuminates the surface where the light beam finishes. Dark is a term that we humans have created to describe what happens when there's lack of light."
Finally, the student asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"
The professor replied, "Of course it exists, as I mentioned at the beginning, we see violations, crimes and violence anywhere in the world, and those things are evil."
The student responded, "Sir, evil does not exist. Just as in the previous cases, Evil is a term which man has created to describe the result of the absence of God's presence in the hearts of man.
After this, the professor bowed down his head, and didn't answer back.
The young man's name was Albert Einstein.
To make this completely clear, Albert Einstein did not say this, nor is it known if the "story" is even remotely factual. It is yet another myth, passed off as truth, by the largest con system in the world, religious believers.... Not to mention the fallacies that are riddled throughout the story. |
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exton
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Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| CryxicKiller wrote: | | Even now, things like M-theory deal with entities that cannot, as far as we know, be measured in principle. |
That is incorrect. Such things can be measured, and are being measured.
If it couldn't be measured, everyone would pretty much ignore it. |
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Lester
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Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:02 am Post subject: |
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That story;
Motivating? Yes.
Probative? No. |
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CryxicKiller
Known Associate
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 332
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Exton, M-theory deals with entities outside of our Universe, what physicists call "branes." As far as we know, we cannot measure those, although we can measure their impact upon our Universe based on the mathematics underlying the theory and some empirical data. The trend in physics towards a Theory of Everything (TOE) actually has garnered much criticism from within the physics community itself, partly because of the issues we're discussing now. |
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exton
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Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| CryxicKiller wrote: | | Exton, M-theory deals with entities outside of our Universe, what physicists call "branes." As far as we know, we cannot measure those, although we can measure their impact upon our Universe based on the mathematics underlying the theory and some empirical data. |
That's called an indirect measurement. |
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