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MissLisa
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Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 56
Location: Virginia
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 Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| CryxicKiller wrote: | Lissa, it appears from your writings that you might be a believer in Spinoza's god, the same one that appealed to Einstein. Pantheism, Spinoza's ideology, or the one most associated with him, basically states that god is found within all entities, that god pervades everything. I say this tentatively, however, because there is not enough information from your statements here to conclude anything definitively. Ultimately, you know what you believe better than I do.
That aside, I must take umbrage with a number of points you raised. There are vast conceptual differences between the way you and I see the world, but I will not let that prevent a connection. First, your statements often oversimplify the problem at hand, or take it out of context altogether. For example, reading your description of the evolution-creation controversy, one would see no issue in believing in both! After all, who does not believe that life on Earth had to start somewhere? So in that sense, it was created. This misses the point: the fundamental divergence between the two positions centers on design, or more specifically, on 'intelligent design.' Life on Earth did start somewhere, and several laboratory experiments indicate that chemical processes were responsible for creating the most integral components necessary for the formation of that life. If that is how you want to view "creation," that's fine by me.
I am uncertain about what this "higher reality of life" is, but your statements do highlight enough of its features and properties to permit castigation. The main issue here concerns your belief that if you truly think something will happen, then it will. This is non-sense, and like with much of non-sense, it's dangerous non-sense, the kind that can and has gotten people killed (see the thread about the priest who wanted to "walk" across a river and drowned, all while trying to emulate Jesus). Are you implying that if I thought long and hard about me flying, then one day I will able to fly, all on my own abilities? I'll tell you what most people do not understand, or at least not as well as they should: the laws of physics. I'll get back to these in a while, but now I'll move to the heart. The heart actually cannot "know" anything; it is simply an organ whose main function is to pump blood. It has no cognitive capacity at all. It does not think, it does not feel. It just sits somewhere within our chests and faithfully pumps blood until it no longer can, at which point we would most likely die.
I am not aware of this number for the "higher life force," but, of course, that does not mean anything. Maybe I missed something along the way. Like Lester, I would love to know precisely what you are talking about on that front. I can, however, tell you the following with strong conviction: quantum mechanics did not give anything approaching god an equation. The greatest equation in quantum mechanics, the Schrodinger equation, probabilistically associates a wave distribution to matter, but that has little to do with god. Furthermore, I actually had the privilege of reading The Holographic Universe, and I believe you may be wildly misconstruing Bohm's ideas to the point of inventing strawmen arguments. To be brief, although Bohm and other like-minded theorists may argue that god could reside within the fundamental reality that projects the normal reality that we see around us all the time (hence the name "holographic"), they do not say absolutely that god does reside there, at least not all do. Holographic theory might be promising and persuasive in the sense that it could unite the religious and materialistic realms, a proposition that probably drew you towards it in the beginning, but it is not a theory that necessarily says god has to lie in that fundamental reality. Nor is it a complete or trusted theory; mainstream science has more or less forgotten it. One certainly should not use it to attempt a proof about something fundamental in the world, unless prior intellectual dispositions have committed a person to a particular position so strongly that only the utilization of a useless theory can rescue the person's beliefs. |
First let me make clear that what I find true for me, and my interactions upon this earth.. is that god or an energy that is intelligent, aware, and knowing does exist thru all things seen and unseen. If you are interested in how I came into this awareness just visit my site, my story is posted in detail at http://www.spiritualhealing-go.....urney.html
I am an avid meditator. I do not seek my information thru someone else's thoughts... Catholicism already showed me how dangerous that is to my own life. But that is not to say, I do not listen to others experiences (not belief systems... but a persons experience) and try to understand it on a deeper level.
There is no doubt that there are many others that would seem very similar to my truths... truth is truth and will not change. The source of all life (god is my chosen word for this energy) will show itself to anyone who seeks. But you will not find it in your books, or even in your mind.. you must look within the heart. But the majority of people aren't even aware of their hearts.. and those that are, are given drugs to repress what their hearts are bringing to the surface.
When I first started meditation, I was starting to see many potentials that exist within each and every human... every one of us are connected to each other and every other aspect of life (that which is seen or unseen). I was shown this thru seeing a massing network of energetic lines that connected one to the other... it was a beautiful sight.
When I had seen that image, and understood that there is nothing that separates us... nothing at all. Even the air around us is a connection. I figured then there must be a way to communicate with all these things... outside of meditation.
Everything is communicative and expressive.. and willing to cooperate with all things... if the motive is pure in intent. I will give you a small but tangible example of this thought.
In May of 2002 a friend of mine who had owned a "camp" located on the side of a mountain in Vermont for 22 years offered me the camp for the summer as a place to have a Spiritual Retreat. She gave me a tour of the grounds and this place was breath taking. There was an area that was wide open and overlooked the valley. At this area was a large quartz rock and just behind this rock a barberry bush. She explained to me that this bush always grows over the beautiful rock and they cut it back every year so it does not hide the rock. I could feel the pain of this bush the moment she stated that fact.
When she left I sat down next to the rock and the bush and asked the bush if there was a way it could grow up, back and sideways, but not over the rock. I heard it say sure... if you would agree to feed the root system. I promised to give it my coffee grinds every morning and whatever else felt right... and I left it at that.
By the end of the summer, this bush grew up, back and sideways, but never over the rock. The owners of the camp were in disbelief because for the first time in 22 years.. this bush was also loaded with red berries. Until that summer, it never produced a berry under their ownership.
I state this story in relationship to your query about the ability to fly. You could fly if you knew how your own energetic system worked with all other energetic systems work. You may not spread your arms and take flight into the air... but moreso move so rapidly thru time and space that one moment in you in one place, the next moment you are in another.
I think you misunderstood (or I did not make clear) what I meant by thought energy. I have a wonderful handbook on my website called Understanding and Connecting with Your Spiritual Self http://www.spiritualhealing-go.....ereis.html that will go into more detail about this information.
Now this was my meager effort to give you a glimpse of who I am and what is true for me. I will get to the rest of your post in a separate post... later in the day.
I will mention this here too... mostly because it is in the forefront of my mind...
Scientists have noticed that quanta - electrons and such... do not appear as matter until they are viewed by someone.. otherwise they act as waves. It is our brain that is needed to turn or process the energy/waves into matter... without the brain, matter does not exist.
There was a documented experiment done by a hypnotherapist where he had two clients one in front of the other. One was hypnotized (processing mind was in a relaxed state) and the other was standing infront of him (or her, I don't remember the sexes right now)... and the hypnotherapist held a clock at his stomach area so the clock would be in direct eye sight of the hypnotized client. Under hypnosis, the client was not told there was someone standing in front of them, but instead that there was a clock that was being held and was given the suggestion to open their eyes and say what time was on the clock.
The hypnotized client never seen the body standing directly infront of them... but instead, only seen the hypnotherapist holding the clock... seeing the time clearly and without obstruction. Once out of hypnosis... the client could not see the clock for the person standing in the way.
Coming back to... it's all in the mind! 
To be continued... |
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MissLisa
Not a Newbie
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 56
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| exton wrote: | | Lester wrote: | | Cryxic, just on the "thinking makes it so" thing, what do we experience in this world besides what our mind tells us?? |
Unless your mind is unstable and prone to hallucination and delusion, it's reasonable to assume that your internal construct of the world is mostly accurate.
It takes a bit of effort to keep it clean, of course, but it's worth doing.
And while you might convince yourself that you can fly, the pavement below disagrees. Although that cannot be absolutely verified, nothing in life can be, so the best you can do is go with the most probable conclusion.
Having the ability to annul the laws of physics at will is not a probable conclusion. |
Ok just have to add this little thought.. convincing yourself is not the same as knowing it is true and understanding how it is true.
I could try and convince myself all day long that an apple is an orange... but without knowing that an apple is an orange.. and would gladly change into the form of an orange... the apple remains and apple. But the moment I realized that the apple is simply composed of energy, and energy can and will change form, and I enter into an agreement with this apple to change into an orange, then it becomes a reality.
The processing mind tends to look into its own documented past to seek out a familiar result and believes that is what will happen. Lets look at something less complicated.
In the past, you entered into a loving relationship.. which ended with the person cheating on you. So you entered the next relationship, now cautious the same thing will happen (your thought energy is focused on the past experience, and expects it to happen again)... and so the new relationship has a similar ending... and the cycle will continue until you reprogram your own own thought processes.
This thought process is creating your reality. If you don't like your reality (your own personal reality)... change your mind (what is true for you) and your reality will change with you!!
Lisa |
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CryxicKiller
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Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 332
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Not to be too confrontational, but your views are a collection and combination of uncultivated and dangerous, which is a pretty damning rendezvous in its own right.
I would agree that "truth is truth and will not change," if by that you mean that there is an external reality independent but interacting with humans. However, not everyone can have their truth, or, more precisely, they can perceive whatever they want about reality, but reality does not and will not change because of those views. There are no "energetic lines" or these deep connections that you are striking between humans. This is all nice talk, but it is ultimately futile, irrelevant, and meaningless, being incited, from what I can tell, by dubious personal experiences with no scientific corroboration.
Bushes cannot speak; what probably happened is that your neurological state had such a strong wish that it managed to "actualize" it in reality through imagination. There might have been wind blowing and you misunderstood this for garbled speech. Humans do this sort of thing all the time; it's not uncommon at all! I've had similar experiences; more than once or twice the roaring wind outside my house appears to be "whispering" an actual human message. Honestly, at one point in their lives, all humans should have undergone something like this. It's no big deal. You just have to realize it for what it is: the bush is not speaking to you. You've made a mistake; move on.
Fermionic and bosonic entities, everything from you to the computer in which you're typing, cannot violate the second postulate of special relativity, which implicitly defines the speed of light as the upper speed limit of the Universe. You, I, and anything else in this Universe can never travel faster than roughly 300 million meters per second. It would take an infinite amount of energy to accelerate to that speed, and no I'm not talking about this abstruse energy that you've concocted out of thin air. This is the part about your views being dangerous; not realizing that humans are subject to the laws of physics like every other object could get one in serious trouble, and already has many times.
I'm very curious about these conclusions that you're reaching with quantum mechanics, which is a euphemism for "you obviously have no idea what you're talking about." Quantum mechanics in no way states or implies whatever it is that you're trying to get across. The best that I can think of that approximates what you're saying is the proposition that once you view a particle, you've "changed" its position because of the reflecting photons. There is a wave-particle duality to matter, but this does not mean, in any way whatsoever, that matter requires the brain to exist. Few serious quantum physicists would hold that matter came into being when humans or some other animals also came into being. They would say that matter came into existence 13.7 billion years ago with the Big Bang, long before there was any intelligent entity to analyze it (most physicists are atheists).
Your hypnosis example, if accurately described, merely shows that humans are gullible in ways that hundreds of thousands of years evolution has encoded into our brains. If your point is that the mind can be duped, then I would agree with you. Many times it can be, but it falls to us to be responsible and recognize what is happening without pointlessly ballooning the issue. Hell, even though my thoughts stand in sharp contrast to yours, I'm still open to the possibility that I can be hypnotized, if whoever was conducting the experiment was skilled enough. But then I would not claim that I've had a life-converting experience or something; just in case you do not know, hypnosis also has a well-documented history of being explained in scientific terms.
The main point to keep in mind: in some areas of life, there is no such thing as "true for me." What could be true for you? The person that you love would be one example; obviously we can't expect everyone to feel the same way we do about a certain individual. In that sense, and this is just meant as a cursory example, that person could be good for you, or "true for you," to get a bit more recondite. The laws of physics, however, are not the types of things that are true for me but false for you. They are true for everyone, and everyone is subject to them. They allow us to do certain things, everything from sending people to the Moon to making our minds believe we hear human speech when it's just the wind, while prohibiting others, like self-initiated human flight. You cannot enter into "agreement" with other physical objects. The best you can do, at the classical level, is mostly just exert forces on them and do work. Energy does change form, but not in the way that you are talking about, disregarding for a moment the fact that you've provided no definition for how you're speaking about energy. Care to mention a mathematical equation or anything, something that would give someone like me a better idea of what you mean? Right now, I can tell you for certain that you are not talking about the same energy that we speak about in science. Thought cannot provide mechanical energy; you don't jump simply because you think about it. Your brain sends an electrical message to the neurons in your feet, which then apply a force against the floor, which pushes back by Newton's third law, launching you into the air (same process that launches a rocket).
Again, frankly speaking, your message is not only intellectually odd, but just downright dangerous. Change your mind and your reality changes with it??? Great, I'll now change my mind towards destroying the Sun and ruining all life on Earth by figuring out the "energetic lines" that connect me with them. I'll let you know how it goes, though you should find out on your own if you're correct. |
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MissLisa
Not a Newbie
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 56
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| CryxicKiller wrote: | Not to be too confrontational, but your views are a collection and combination of uncultivated and dangerous, which is a pretty damning rendezvous in its own right.
I would agree that "truth is truth and will not change," if by that you mean that there is an external reality independent but interacting with humans. However, not everyone can have their truth, or, more precisely, they can perceive whatever they want about reality, but reality does not and will not change because of those views. There are no "energetic lines" or these deep connections that you are striking between humans. This is all nice talk, but it is ultimately futile, irrelevant, and meaningless, being incited, from what I can tell, by dubious personal experiences with no scientific corroboration.
Bushes cannot speak; what probably happened is that your neurological state had such a strong wish that it managed to "actualize" it in reality through imagination. There might have been wind blowing and you misunderstood this for garbled speech. Humans do this sort of thing all the time; it's not uncommon at all! I've had similar experiences; more than once or twice the roaring wind outside my house appears to be "whispering" an actual human message. Honestly, at one point in their lives, all humans should have undergone something like this. It's no big deal. You just have to realize it for what it is: the bush is not speaking to you. You've made a mistake; move on.
Fermionic and bosonic entities, everything from you to the computer in which you're typing, cannot violate the second postulate of special relativity, which implicitly defines the speed of light as the upper speed limit of the Universe. You, I, and anything else in this Universe can never travel faster than roughly 300 million meters per second. It would take an infinite amount of energy to accelerate to that speed, and no I'm not talking about this abstruse energy that you've concocted out of thin air. This is the part about your views being dangerous; not realizing that humans are subject to the laws of physics like every other object could get one in serious trouble, and already has many times.
I'm very curious about these conclusions that you're reaching with quantum mechanics, which is a euphemism for "you obviously have no idea what you're talking about." Quantum mechanics in no way states or implies whatever it is that you're trying to get across. The best that I can think of that approximates what you're saying is the proposition that once you view a particle, you've "changed" its position because of the reflecting photons. There is a wave-particle duality to matter, but this does not mean, in any way whatsoever, that matter requires the brain to exist. Few serious quantum physicists would hold that matter came into being when humans or some other animals also came into being. They would say that matter came into existence 13.7 billion years ago with the Big Bang, long before there was any intelligent entity to analyze it (most physicists are atheists).
Your hypnosis example, if accurately described, merely shows that humans are gullible in ways that hundreds of thousands of years evolution has encoded into our brains. If your point is that the mind can be duped, then I would agree with you. Many times it can be, but it falls to us to be responsible and recognize what is happening without pointlessly ballooning the issue. Hell, even though my thoughts stand in sharp contrast to yours, I'm still open to the possibility that I can be hypnotized, if whoever was conducting the experiment was skilled enough. But then I would not claim that I've had a life-converting experience or something; just in case you do not know, hypnosis also has a well-documented history of being explained in scientific terms.
The main point to keep in mind: in some areas of life, there is no such thing as "true for me." What could be true for you? The person that you love would be one example; obviously we can't expect everyone to feel the same way we do about a certain individual. In that sense, and this is just meant as a cursory example, that person could be good for you, or "true for you," to get a bit more recondite. The laws of physics, however, are not the types of things that are true for me but false for you. They are true for everyone, and everyone is subject to them. They allow us to do certain things, everything from sending people to the Moon to making our minds believe we hear human speech when it's just the wind, while prohibiting others, like self-initiated human flight. You cannot enter into "agreement" with other physical objects. The best you can do, at the classical level, is mostly just exert forces on them and do work. Energy does change form, but not in the way that you are talking about, disregarding for a moment the fact that you've provided no definition for how you're speaking about energy. Care to mention a mathematical equation or anything, something that would give someone like me a better idea of what you mean? Right now, I can tell you for certain that you are not talking about the same energy that we speak about in science. Thought cannot provide mechanical energy; you don't jump simply because you think about it. Your brain sends an electrical message to the neurons in your feet, which then apply a force against the floor, which pushes back by Newton's third law, launching you into the air (same process that launches a rocket).
Again, frankly speaking, your message is not only intellectually odd, but just downright dangerous. Change your mind and your reality changes with it??? Great, I'll now change my mind towards destroying the Sun and ruining all life on Earth by figuring out the "energetic lines" that connect me with them. I'll let you know how it goes, though you should find out on your own if you're correct. |
Hey I never said this was your truth... I said it was mine. I really don't care what you want to believe or not believe... but for as long as you insist a bush can't talk... then that is exactly true for you. But don't say they can't talk as if you are the authority on such a thing... saying you don't believe they can, or have no experience that they can... now that is a reasonable argument or debate (which I find these forms more of a debate, arguments tend to come to a stalemate that leave no further room for discussion). But for me, all life talks, communicates, and works in harmony with us, if we are in harmony with them.
I equally believe the wind can talk... it does for me, and obviously has for you too... but there is not scientific data to back up your experience... best to write it off to the wind. Man you are missing half the beauty of life... which is your prerogative!
With your comment | Quote: | | there is no such thing as "true for me." |
I will differ on your statement. All of life is experience differently for every person. I may bite and apple and experience it as sour, yet someone else will bite the same apple and experience it as sweet... is one right or one wrong... no, both are right according to what is true for that person and what they experienced from biting the apple. Now the two can argue all day long about each others experience... but arguing doesn't take away the separate experience each person had within the same reality of the apple.
You can even look at this discussion we are having... your statements are true for you, but hold no truth for me... and vise versa. Why do you have to live in a world (which is one reason it is such a mess) where we both cannot be right, within the world we are experiencing.
Your mind id dead set closed on experiencing anything less than black and white, concrete and defined. I live in a world where I have seen an illness completely removed in an instant (I am also a spiritual healer) just from connecting with the illness with my heart, understanding why it is there (because it told me why it was), and letting it know its job is done because the client has changed. But I will not expect you to believe that... which is good, keeps our doctors and drug pushers in business!! I am sure they appreciate your views on life and refusal to see that life is so much more than we ever realized!
I am choosing to see and experience life very differently than you... and trust me there is no danger within it... where I find the danger is to the mind that has closed off the truest form of reality there is... spirit (and we are that spirit in human form).
I am a certified hypnotherapist... focusing on past life regressions. I am sort of lost in your comment about humans being gullible in reference to the clock experiment... I can't quite understand how gullible fits within your reasoning.
And I never stated that quantum physics backed up any of what I have experienced.. only that when quanta is being viewed it appears as matter... when it is not being viewed it appears as waves... that is the only part of quantum physics I referred to... and do not claim to be an expert in that area at all... I am way too mathematically challenged for that life!! I look at science in relationship to my own experiences... but far from well versed in that area!
But I am well versed and experienced in the spiritual arena...but this topic is about evolution means you deny God... which is why I posted... god is evolution and we are all god in the material form. 
with love and honor to you,
Lisa |
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Johnguitars
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Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 48
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:21 pm Post subject: Evilution |
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I wonder at the wisdom of those who pin their arguements and perhaps even their eternal souls on the science of today. After all the history of science tells us that the next generation will look back and smile at our simplistic views and say, "How quaint."
Philosophically speaking, as science is an unfinished wor,k then science must always be wrong! |
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CryxicKiller
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Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 332
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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You mentioned a number of things that I'll get to in due time, but first I want to highlight something important, which relates to method of debate. Strawmen arguments will not get you very far, here or really anywhere else, excluding politics, of course. You launched yourself into a multi-paragraph reply to a statement that I made, but only quoted partially, without reference to the larger comment, which was, "in some areas of life, there is no such thing as "true for me."" Where did the in some areas of life go? Why did you not quote this? Seems silly to devote so much of your post to countering an argument that was not even made! Obviously I knew you would counter the way you did if I stated so simply and callously what you quoted me as doing. To reiterate: yes, there are many aspects to life that we as individuals have to decide for on our own, but there are others that are beyond our desires. That is, no matter what you think or want to be true about that portion of the world, it won't matter, because it will never change. The laws of physics are one example; the laws of logic another. Modus ponens has been true for the 2,000 or so years that it has existed and was true before that. The way that you want to experience your life has no bearing on that.
Bushes cannot talk. This is not a matter that can be true to you but not to me. Bushes do not have the necessary biological complexity and physiological components to be able to generate speech. That's just a fact about the world; you can't just say, "not to me!" Of course you can deny what I'm telling you, but in that case your denial is completely unreasonable and can be safely ignored. It is a decision that is not based on one iota of evidence, but, as I mentioned before, is inspired by vague personal experiences that obviously have been exploded to unworthy levels of importance. Sorry, there are some facts in the world that are what we might colloquially call "absolute truth." I myself dislike the term because it engenders a host of misconceptions, but there it is, for lack of a better phrase. E = mc^2; that's "absolute truth," in all its mechanisms and glory. "Bushes can talk" is a pathetic statement meant for humor rather than a serious topic of conversation.
Once again, whether you understand it or not, what you hold as truths in such matters are irrelevant because they are propositions based almost entirely on misguided faith. You see, every time that you get on your computer, and every time that you hit one of the keys, you are actualizing or experiencing the laws of electromagnetism and of classical mechanics (after all, how do you type? You exert a force on the keys. And how does your computer turn on? Through billions and billions of electrical messages communicating almost simultaneously). These are truths that are virtually beyond question. Every time that you walk and don't crash through the Earth, you are actualizing the laws of electromagnetism; the negative electrons in the outer shells of atoms repel each other and prevent you from going through other objects. Every time you use a GPS device (if you do!) you actualize the laws of special and general relativity, with stunning degrees of accuracy every time. Those are truths. They are not dependent upon what you want or decide as you wake up in the morning. And the same truths that allow you to successfully use a GPS device keep you on the ground, preventing you from flying, no matter what you will. You can only will yourself to do things that are allowed by the laws of physics.
On your quantum mechanics point: it is not true. Things don't just appear as matter when you view them. Matter has displayed the wave-particle duality in countless number of experiments. I really have no idea where you are getting this stuff from. You have quite a misguided outlook on life, but still want to preserve the precepts of quantum mechanics if they suit your purpose when fiddled around with! Just odd. |
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CryxicKiller
Known Associate
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 332
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:04 am Post subject: Re: Evilution |
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| Johnguitars wrote: | I wonder at the wisdom of those who pin their arguements and perhaps even their eternal souls on the science of today. After all the history of science tells us that the next generation will look back and smile at our simplistic views and say, "How quaint."
Philosophically speaking, as science is an unfinished wor,k then science must always be wrong! |
It is true that there is much in all scientific fields that is incomplete. And it is also true that the history of science has witnessed many mistakes and renovations. However, science has also progressed tremendously since the first naturalistic explanations proposed by the Milesians (c. 600 BCE). This view may be one most associated with a scientific realist, which I am, but nevertheless there is much evidence for it. Furthermore, many empiricists would also agree that science has seen a great deal of progress throughout its history. On the motif of evidence, there is much evidence to believe that we are getting closer to "ultimate" explanations of materialistic phenomena. In physics, we call this search, or its end product, the 'Theory of Everything,' and many believe we are just a few decades away from attaining it.
Finally, I do not believe in such a thing as an "eternal soul," so I am in no way pinning that on science. I mean, I can't be, because it doesn't exist. |
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MissLisa
Not a Newbie
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 56
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| CryxicKiller wrote: | You mentioned a number of things that I'll get to in due time, but first I want to highlight something important, which relates to method of debate. Strawmen arguments will not get you very far, here or really anywhere else, excluding politics, of course. You launched yourself into a multi-paragraph reply to a statement that I made, but only quoted partially, without reference to the larger comment, which was, "in some areas of life, there is no such thing as "true for me."" Where did the in some areas of life go? Why did you not quote this? Seems silly to devote so much of your post to countering an argument that was not even made! Obviously I knew you would counter the way you did if I stated so simply and callously what you quoted me as doing. To reiterate: yes, there are many aspects to life that we as individuals have to decide for on our own, but there are others that are beyond our desires. That is, no matter what you think or want to be true about that portion of the world, it won't matter, because it will never change. The laws of physics are one example; the laws of logic another. Modus ponens has been true for the 2,000 or so years that it has existed and was true before that. The way that you want to experience your life has no bearing on that.
Bushes cannot talk. This is not a matter that can be true to you but not to me. Bushes do not have the necessary biological complexity and physiological components to be able to generate speech. That's just a fact about the world; you can't just say, "not to me!" Of course you can deny what I'm telling you, but in that case your denial is completely unreasonable and can be safely ignored. It is a decision that is not based on one iota of evidence, but, as I mentioned before, is inspired by vague personal experiences that obviously have been exploded to unworthy levels of importance. Sorry, there are some facts in the world that are what we might colloquially call "absolute truth." I myself dislike the term because it engenders a host of misconceptions, but there it is, for lack of a better phrase. E = mc^2; that's "absolute truth," in all its mechanisms and glory. "Bushes can talk" is a pathetic statement meant for humor rather than a serious topic of conversation.
Once again, whether you understand it or not, what you hold as truths in such matters are irrelevant because they are propositions based almost entirely on misguided faith. You see, every time that you get on your computer, and every time that you hit one of the keys, you are actualizing or experiencing the laws of electromagnetism and of classical mechanics (after all, how do you type? You exert a force on the keys. And how does your computer turn on? Through billions and billions of electrical messages communicating almost simultaneously). These are truths that are virtually beyond question. Every time that you walk and don't crash through the Earth, you are actualizing the laws of electromagnetism; the negative electrons in the outer shells of atoms repel each other and prevent you from going through other objects. Every time you use a GPS device (if you do!) you actualize the laws of special and general relativity, with stunning degrees of accuracy every time. Those are truths. They are not dependent upon what you want or decide as you wake up in the morning. And the same truths that allow you to successfully use a GPS device keep you on the ground, preventing you from flying, no matter what you will. You can only will yourself to do things that are allowed by the laws of physics.
On your quantum mechanics point: it is not true. Things don't just appear as matter when you view them. Matter has displayed the wave-particle duality in countless number of experiments. I really have no idea where you are getting this stuff from. You have quite a misguided outlook on life, but still want to preserve the precepts of quantum mechanics if they suit your purpose when fiddled around with! Just odd. |
I am not here to argue what I find true for me. And if it makes you feel better, then lets change the wording to part of life.. what the difference is, I am not quite sure... if it makes you feel better to section out part of life instead of life being life (being true given our current perception of the world we live within) more power to ya! Then I will humbly redefine the quote to include part of life.
You live within your world, I am not trying to convince you of my world.. I am simply sharing my own personal experiences with you... not faith based ideas.. but actual experiences...and they are not up for debate, altho you have the choice to not believe them.
In the quantum field I am not going to argue with you. I have not had the experience, simply read about it as documentation. But we also know that scientists do not agree with each other, that too is well documented.
I have developed a little quote that I share with those who ask me what I do when I talk to someone who wants to convert me to their way of thinking (and god knows.. the world is filled with people wanting you to only see life thru their eyes and not your own eyes and experiences)... "What God has given to me, no man can ever take away".
Namaste,
Lisa |
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MissLisa
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Posts: 56
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:48 am Post subject: Re: Evilution |
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| Quote: | CryxicKiller
Finally, I do not believe in such a thing as an "eternal soul," so I am in no way pinning that on science. I mean, I can't be, because it doesn't exist. |
I would be curious to learn how you see life and its purpose if you do not believe in an eternal soul.
I am not looking to argue with you about it, or even devalue how you see life... but am very curious how you see life and its purpose if there is no higher reason or any reason to be here.
Just curious,
Lisa |
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CryxicKiller
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Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 332
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:52 am Post subject: |
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We both live within the same world, and we both are subject to its workings. I have nothing against your personal experiences. I am not even doubting that they occurred; I believe you. I believe that you actually heard something near the bush. What I do not believe, and I do not believe it because it is not allowed by the laws of physics that I highlighted above, is that the bush actually spoke to you. That most certainly did not happen. I do not mean to belittle you or your personal experiences, but I do want to caution you to be more careful about how you interpret these experiences. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill.
Do not also get the wrong impression about my intentions. I am not necessarily trying you to change your views completely, but merely to follow the evidence. I really do not believe that arguments lead to someone changing their minds anyway, at least not too much. Often they are simply an arena for playful conversation; there is nothing serious going on here, certainly nothing like a "conversion." That's a hell of an accusation, but I suppose I have been heavy-handed.
Scientists do not agree with each other, but I am fairly sure every relevant scientist would disagree with your statements on quantum mechanics (and yes, there are several interpretation on what quantum mechanics says). |
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MissLisa
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Posts: 56
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| CryxicKiller wrote: | We both live within the same world, and we both are subject to its workings. I have nothing against your personal experiences. I am not even doubting that they occurred; I believe you. I believe that you actually heard something near the bush. What I do not believe, and I do not believe it because it is not allowed by the laws of physics that I highlighted above, is that the bush actually spoke to you. That most certainly did not happen. I do not mean to belittle you or your personal experiences, but I do want to caution you to be more careful about how you interpret these experiences. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill.
Do not also get the wrong impression about my intentions. I am not necessarily trying you to change your views completely, but merely to follow the evidence. I really do not believe that arguments lead to someone changing their minds anyway, at least not too much. Often they are simply an arena for playful conversation; there is nothing serious going on here, certainly nothing like a "conversion." That's a hell of an accusation, but I suppose I have been heavy-handed.
Scientists do not agree with each other, but I am fairly sure every relevant scientist would disagree with your statements on quantum mechanics (and yes, there are several interpretation on what quantum mechanics says). |
Ok then let me make clear... and the bush is only 1 experience of many. The Bush did not grow a mouth and start talking out of it... but it did communicate in words, within my realm of hearing what it desired and rather clearly too.
I know you cannot seem to understand how a bush can communicate... but I also do not understand how you tell me this did not happen, when I know it did. Just because you can't understand it, or there is no scientific proof does not make it impossible!
My truck will tell me in words.. not by growing a mouth and using it, but with words I can hear within my inner hearing and often times my outer hearing... when it is in need of repair, or needs gas (my gas gage doesn't work).
I am more than willing to hear your views, but not as absolutes, as I do not wish you to hear my views as absolutes. If you ever want me to teach you how to hear... I will be glad to. I teach spiritual development for a living (I am a spiritual jack of many trades and a master of meditation).
There is an amazing amount of life science has not even gleaned yet... because something's are not absolute. Had I had a scientist on my mountain that summer... they would have reasoned it away as something other than what I know it was... a communication and cooperation with a bush.
I did do an experiment while on my mountain (and yes I have gotten possessive of that place.. it was such an amazing experience)... do you remember when regular batteries (Like double A's) had those yellow strips up the side and you put your finger and thumb at top and bottom of the battery to check its life (They don't seem to sell them anymore).
I had a couple of these batteries that were completely dead. I put my thumb and finger where needed... no blip of energy in the battery. I switched my focus (as I do in meditation) and brought a flow of energy thru me.. the battery went to fully charged with this focused energy flowing thru me.
Everything in life is energy. Nothing more or less.. its all energy. All energy is intelligent and communicative, if you learn how to listen.
If you are ever up for a grand experiment within yourself.. just let me know!! |
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exton
Forum Elder
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| MissLisa wrote: |
Ok just have to add this little thought.. convincing yourself is not the same as knowing it is true and understanding how it is true. |
That's the marvelous thing about self-deception: you can't tell the difference.
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I could try and convince myself all day long that an apple is an orange... but without knowing that an apple is an orange.. and would gladly change into the form of an orange... the apple remains and apple. But the moment I realized that the apple is simply composed of energy, and energy can and will change form, and I enter into an agreement with this apple to change into an orange, then it becomes a reality.
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And what physical process would account for that?
Energy isn't just some nebulous, spiritual figment of the human imagination; it's a real, scientific concept with a specific definition, specific properties, and specific sorts of behavior.
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The processing mind tends to look into its own documented past to seek out a familiar result and believes that is what will happen. Lets look at something less complicated.
In the past, you entered into a loving relationship.. which ended with the person cheating on you. So you entered the next relationship, now cautious the same thing will happen (your thought energy is focused on the past experience, and expects it to happen again)... and so the new relationship has a similar ending... and the cycle will continue until you reprogram your own own thought processes.
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"Thought energy"? I would be interested to see a way of measuring that.
Moreover, how, exactly, would your "thought energy" coerce your significant other into some sort of behavior?
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This thought process is creating your reality. If you don't like your reality (your own personal reality)... change your mind (what is true for you) and your reality will change with you!!
Lisa |
That's patently delusional. |
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exton
Forum Elder
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:05 am Post subject: Re: Evilution |
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| MissLisa wrote: |
I would be curious to learn how you see life and its purpose if you do not believe in an eternal soul. |
You weren't asking me, but i don't believe in souls either, so i'll answer.
Life has no intrinsic purpose.
It only has the purpose that we give to it; we choose our own purpose in life. |
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exton
Forum Elder
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| MissLisa wrote: |
Everything in life is energy. Nothing more or less.. its all energy. All energy is intelligent and communicative, if you learn how to listen. |
Do you understand what energy is? |
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exton
Forum Elder
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:07 am Post subject: Re: Evilution |
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| Johnguitars wrote: |
Philosophically speaking, as science is an unfinished wor,k then science must always be wrong! |
That's obviously not true.
Your computer works, doesn't it? |
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