believing in evolution means you deny god? fuck no!

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believing in evolution means you deny god? fuck no!

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joeyjock
Forum Elder

Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 2108
Location: Fort Lauderdale

Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:26 am Post subject:

exton wrote:

joeyjock wrote:

Nope...
I can't and that's up to me and myself in order to believe
The question is...why then are so many trying so desperately to prove that THEIR version is true?

I blame science. Science with all its "evidence" and "rigorous proof" has been so successful that people feel insecure in beliefs that aren't substantiated by it.

And they should feel insecure about it, if they care about getting at the truth.

No...
On the contrary there has been a slow conscious effort in this country for years to slowly discredit science and all of its findings just because what science has shown to be TRUE has been to some people not politically expediant ie: the term "junk science"

Lester
Forum Elder

Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650

Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:48 am Post subject:

exton wrote:

Lester wrote:

the point is not that I asm imagining death right or not, it is that my mind believes that I am dying.

I'll grant that.

Then I would posit, strange as it may seem, that Docsmitter is right, and that our brains are incapable of telling what is reality.

Plato's cavern is an excellent example of this, the idea was around long before the Matrix and the best anyones come up with as far as I know is a Unicorns Bargain.

Johnguitars
Newbie

Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 48
Location: Scotland

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject: Creation vs evolution

Before I became a Christian, I found the concept of evolution, unsatisfying, it did not ring true. I will however admit that it could have been the mechanism that God used. Simply read the Creation and Eden stories as symbolic and there is no problem.

Adam is created from a handful of dust, well you have heard the expression, "You are what you eat." Plants come from dust and meat comes from the eating of plants so we are all just that dust of which the bible speaks.

Let me though for a moment play the creationist card.
God creates thru speaking things into being, right?
Before you can do this you have to imagine it, to form it in your mind.
Here is your chance to think like God!
Imagine, a, horse!

ok how many of you started with pond slime and made it evolve?

I'll bet most of you went straight to a fully grown horse possibly with a cowboy or a knight but your horse had an apparent age, yet, if you had godlike power to make it real, then it would now be messing up your carpet with fresh poo from a meal it never had!

Real age and apparent age may not be the same thing at all.

exton
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:42 am Post subject: Re: Creation vs evolution

Johnguitars wrote:

I read the whole thing as symbolic, and then chuckle to myself. "Hah-hah, oh those primitive desert nomads and their silly myths and legends."

Quote:

Adam is created from a handful of dust, well you have heard the expression, "You are what you eat." Plants come from dust and meat comes from the eating of plants so we are all just that dust of which the bible speaks.

There's also iron in what you eat. It's an important mineral for your health and well-being.

But if you try to eat a chunk of solid iron, bad things will happen.

The form that your food comes in matters as much as the chemicals that it's made of; if you tried eating dirt, it wouldn't work out well.

Quote:

Let me though for a moment play the creationist card.
God creates thru speaking things into being, right?
Before you can do this you have to imagine it, to form it in your mind.
Here is your chance to think like God!
Imagine, a, horse!

ok how many of you started with pond slime and made it evolve?

Ah, but you're just thinking like an artist - you're just pulling up an image in your head.

You're not thinking like an engineer - you're not considering how you'd actually make that horse come to life.

Imagining something you want to make is one thing; imagining how you'd make it is another thing entirely.

Quote:

Real age and apparent age may not be the same thing at all.

I'm guessing that you're not very familiar with radiometric dating techniques.

Oolon Colluphid
Not a Newbie

Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 133
Location: Florida

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:10 am Post subject: Re: Creation vs evolution

exton wrote:

The form that your food comes in matters as much as the chemicals that it's made of; if you tried eating dirt, it wouldn't work out well.

Actually dirt is very rich in minerals. It is known that people do, and have, eaten dirt for that reason.

Oolon Colluphid
Not a Newbie

Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 133
Location: Florida

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:32 am Post subject: Re: Creation vs evolution

Johnguitars wrote:

Yes, there is a problem. The bible says in the creation story specifically what a day is; "God called the light day, and the darkness he called night. And there was evening and there was morning, ONE DAY.....was evening and there was morning, a second day.". This is not "symbolic", it is very specific.

I don't care if evolution doesn't "ring true" for you or not - it is true. Black holes don't "ring true" for me, but I know that they exist because science has proven them to be true beyond a reasonable doubt... Learn from it and accept it. That's all I can say.

We know that evolution happens over long periods of time. During that time slow, random changes occur. This is not consistant with the creation story even in a symbolic sense.

Johnguitars wrote:

HA!... I love silly little antidotes like these....
First, where in the bible does it say, "you are what you eat"? Second, the bible does say that eve was created from Adams rib!! Does this mean my wife is going to eat my ribs?!?!

Why is it acceptable for creationists to figure us as equals with dust but they are insulted that we evolved from ape like species? Rolling Eyes

Johnguitars wrote:

In a way you've just proved that God is not real.
Evolution happens -It is a fact. Sorry to disappoint you but it's true...
You're right; I did think like a god would create!
Therefore, using your little card, since evolution is a fact, God must not be!! Thanks!

exton
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:08 am Post subject: Re: Creation vs evolution

Oolon Colluphid wrote:

[
Actually dirt is very rich in minerals. It is known that people do, and have, eaten dirt for that reason.

Ah, but does it work?

I mean, people do alot of things for a lot of reasons, and quite a few of them don't actually work.

MissLisa
Not a Newbie

Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 56
Location: Virginia

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:53 am Post subject:

Hi there folks,

It has taken me a few days to read this entire thread... but alas... I have read it all! Sorta makes me wish I was here for the beginning but better late than never Very Happy

Man has a tendency to look at things as one way or the other. Life was either an act of creation, or evolved from ameba's. Why can't both theories be true?

I personally believe very much in God, or better said a divine force that is within all things. However, I am not religious in anyway. I subscribe to no pre-set thought form (organized religion) what so ever.

Quantum science equally agrees with this and has found it to be true. They (quantum science) officially assigned god a mathematical equation and found that this force is found thru all life... so that has to be true (grin).

Even if we want to believe in evolution (which I do) that original life form had to start somewhere, which would be creation (which I also believe in).

I personally believe that the purpose of creation is to evolve.

Now I do not believe that we (humans) were created from dirt, but that is not to say we do not have the same make-up within our human body as the earth has. all of life has the same basic elements within them only different variations of those elements. So it is easy to understand why ancient man believed we humans were created from dirt. The majority of ancient texts that exist are symbolic and metaphoric in nature, but we want to take everything literally, which creates confusion and miss-truths (IMHO).

Now with god (or whatever word you choose to use for the thread of life that exists within all life) we have to give god a little credit with having a higher plan to breath life into life to begin with. There has to be a purpose to creation otherwise nothing would make sense.

So creating the first man, in primitive form as he did in this cycle of evolution that is playing out on earth (and yes I believe we have been thru this cycle many many many times) was to evolve as a species. But evolve into the spiritual beings we all are...

We can look at life like a huge play that is happening. God created the entire stage and each of us are the actors bringing it all into creation with every thing we think, do and say. when we finish this play... another one will come into being.

Well this post is getting long... I will close on that note.

Namaste,
Lisa

MissLisa
Not a Newbie

Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 56
Location: Virginia

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:12 pm Post subject:

Docsmitter wrote:

Amin wrote:

whether there is a god or not

"then it is reasonable to assume that he doesn't"

there are so many things we do not know so i think it is reasonable to assume there could be anything

If you believe in something enough you can even convince yourself its real. The brain cannot seperate whats really happening from whats in your head. This theory was first popularized in the matrix, hence you die in your thoughts, you die. Is it that extreme? No one knows, as you normally wake up before you die...

You have a very valid point there! If you believe (think) something is true long enough, hard enough, you create that very thing into your reality!
Most people do not understand the incredible power of their own thoughts and the energy that comes into creation with its focus.

I must agree with you again that the brain is only half of the equation in our lives. We tend to live souly thru the mental faculties, because that is what we have been taught to do. However there is another central processor that works even better than the brain (and the brain is only there to allow you to experience matter, the mind allows you to processes the matter your brain is experiencing)... then there is the heart.

The heart knows every truth that exists and cannot accept lies or untruths like the mind can and does. Yet it is the very last place we look or trust within ourselves.

The mind nor the heart can process death, because death simply does not exist. That doesn't mean the mind can't fear it, because the mind having input from our current and past beliefs, simply fears what it does not understand.

The heart knows life cannot die. It can however, change form (since all life is energy and energy cannot ever cease to be once created, but can change form).

why do you think everyone wakes up just as the dream should create death... because upon the perceived death (to the human eye) the spirit wakes up to its true reality.... so death cannot exist within the dream because it simply does not exist at all.

Namaste,
Lisa

Lester
Forum Elder

Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject:

Just a quick question Miss Lisa(btw, I agree with you on many things) what is this equation of 'god'??

MissLisa
Not a Newbie

Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 56
Location: Virginia

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:48 pm Post subject:

Lester wrote:

Just a quick question Miss Lisa(btw, I agree with you on many things) what is this equation of 'god'??

Hi Lester,

Please bear with me as I try and find the information again.

I started to look into the world of Quantum science about 6 years ago as I started to understand the higher reality of life/spirit... so that I could understand how the two worked together (within my own self).

I have read several books that look at both aspects, (science and spirit) and I am having trouble remembering where I had seen that information at. I do remember seeing this really long mathematical number which was assigned to a higher life force (science never called it god and now I forget the words they did use for it) that they found in all of life.

The only book I have left (that I didn't lend out and someone didn't return to me...smile) is "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot. It was my "bible" when I first started to reach for a higher understanding of life.. and what life is capable of doing. I will look over this book to see if I can find the quote that I referenced quantum science gave god (my word there) a mathematical equation. I may need to go the library and find the book that stated this... either way, give me some time and I will get back to you with the answer I had found.

Namaste,
Lisa

CryxicKiller
Known Associate

Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 332

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:27 pm Post subject:

Lissa, it appears from your writings that you might be a believer in Spinoza's god, the same one that appealed to Einstein. Pantheism, Spinoza's ideology, or the one most associated with him, basically states that god is found within all entities, that god pervades everything. I say this tentatively, however, because there is not enough information from your statements here to conclude anything definitively. Ultimately, you know what you believe better than I do.

That aside, I must take umbrage with a number of points you raised. There are vast conceptual differences between the way you and I see the world, but I will not let that prevent a connection. First, your statements often oversimplify the problem at hand, or take it out of context altogether. For example, reading your description of the evolution-creation controversy, one would see no issue in believing in both! After all, who does not believe that life on Earth had to start somewhere? So in that sense, it was created. This misses the point: the fundamental divergence between the two positions centers on design, or more specifically, on 'intelligent design.' Life on Earth did start somewhere, and several laboratory experiments indicate that chemical processes were responsible for creating the most integral components necessary for the formation of that life. If that is how you want to view "creation," that's fine by me.

I am uncertain about what this "higher reality of life" is, but your statements do highlight enough of its features and properties to permit castigation. The main issue here concerns your belief that if you truly think something will happen, then it will. This is non-sense, and like with much of non-sense, it's dangerous non-sense, the kind that can and has gotten people killed (see the thread about the priest who wanted to "walk" across a river and drowned, all while trying to emulate Jesus). Are you implying that if I thought long and hard about me flying, then one day I will able to fly, all on my own abilities? I'll tell you what most people do not understand, or at least not as well as they should: the laws of physics. I'll get back to these in a while, but now I'll move to the heart. The heart actually cannot "know" anything; it is simply an organ whose main function is to pump blood. It has no cognitive capacity at all. It does not think, it does not feel. It just sits somewhere within our chests and faithfully pumps blood until it no longer can, at which point we would most likely die.

I am not aware of this number for the "higher life force," but, of course, that does not mean anything. Maybe I missed something along the way. Like Lester, I would love to know precisely what you are talking about on that front. I can, however, tell you the following with strong conviction: quantum mechanics did not give anything approaching god an equation. The greatest equation in quantum mechanics, the Schrodinger equation, probabilistically associates a wave distribution to matter, but that has little to do with god. Furthermore, I actually had the privilege of reading The Holographic Universe, and I believe you may be wildly misconstruing Bohm's ideas to the point of inventing strawmen arguments. To be brief, although Bohm and other like-minded theorists may argue that god could reside within the fundamental reality that projects the normal reality that we see around us all the time (hence the name "holographic"), they do not say absolutely that god does reside there, at least not all do. Holographic theory might be promising and persuasive in the sense that it could unite the religious and materialistic realms, a proposition that probably drew you towards it in the beginning, but it is not a theory that necessarily says god has to lie in that fundamental reality. Nor is it a complete or trusted theory; mainstream science has more or less forgotten it. One certainly should not use it to attempt a proof about something fundamental in the world, unless prior intellectual dispositions have committed a person to a particular position so strongly that only the utilization of a useless theory can rescue the person's beliefs.

Lester
Forum Elder

Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:43 am Post subject:

Cryxic, just on the "thinking makes it so" thing, what do we experience in this world besides what our mind tells us??

A quote I like is "I used to think my brain was the most wonderful organ in my body, but then I remembered who was telling me this".

Like in the Matrix, what is real? If your talking about what you can see and touch and hear and smell and taste, then real is merely electrical signals being sent to your brain.

Hence if you convinced *your* brain utterly that you could fly, then you would fly, however, this may not prevent other people from perceiving you as a deranged loony with his brains splattered over the sidewalk, it just prevents you from perceiving yourself as such.

exton
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:24 am Post subject:

Lester wrote:

Cryxic, just on the "thinking makes it so" thing, what do we experience in this world besides what our mind tells us??

Unless your mind is unstable and prone to hallucination and delusion, it's reasonable to assume that your internal construct of the world is mostly accurate.

It takes a bit of effort to keep it clean, of course, but it's worth doing.

And while you might convince yourself that you can fly, the pavement below disagrees. Although that cannot be absolutely verified, nothing in life can be, so the best you can do is go with the most probable conclusion.

Having the ability to annul the laws of physics at will is not a probable conclusion.

Lester
Forum Elder

Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4650

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:33 am Post subject:

If your mind is unstable and prone to hallucination, how would you know? Especially if everyne else was hallucinating the same, or corresponding, things.

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