A question to Atheists

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A question to Atheists

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Vinces
Newbie

Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 19

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: A question to Atheists

What would it take to convince you to change you mind?

I'm just curious.

What kind of evidence do you require?

There is obviously no right or wrong answer.

Would experiencing a "miracle" be enough

would hearing the audible voice of God do it?

How about if a visitor from another planet with greater technology told you so?

Maybe nothing could change your mind?

You tell me. Maybe we will all learn something.

Toxic
Forum Elder

Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1568

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:02 am Post subject:

How am I supposed to know what evidence you need to provide to prove your stance? I don't even know what I need to provide to prove my own stance.

GregTReich
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:21 am Post subject: Evidence that would make me abandon Atheism

If you want to convince me that miracles--bona fide miracles--happen, here are some examples that I would need to witness:

-a person with several broken bones--visible compound fractures--heals in an instant before my eyes

-two cars collide in what would have been a fatal accident, but before my eyes, the instant before the collision, all parties involved disappear, then reappear several yards away, unscathed

--a person who is clearly, undeniably dead, like someone who just blew their brains all over the wall by eating a bullet, comes back to life and is completely intact

These would be miracles. A pile of gold appearing in front of me would be pretty convincing, too. I could think of a lot of examples. Now, as far as a god is concerned:

-I would have to hear a voice that other people can hear, too, saying the same thing to everyone, and it has to come from thin air, and it has to say something no human could possibly know (rules out ventriloquists and sound technology).

-Someone who has been dead for years comes back in some form, ethereal or otherwise, and tells several people at once about an afterlife involving a god or gods (telling just me without witnesses would not rule out paranoid schizophrenia).

-A voice would tell me something no human could figure out with our current technology and could not know about without years of research and experience in a field unrelated to anything I've ever done, and it would pan out in the peer-review process.

Again, I can think of several examples that would make me change my views. However, every single religious person I've ever met ultimately says that it comes down to faith. A few have told me that they've experienced or witnessed miracles, but with no empirical evidence to prove their assertions. I've never met with credible, objective evidence of the existence of any god, so they all remain myths unless such evidence comes into existence.

Vinces
Newbie

Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 19

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject:

Toxic,
Ahh, okay, you don't have to prove anyone's stance. Thanks for your time anyway.

Vinces
Newbie

Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 19

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject:

Greg,
So if I understand you right, you would only change your mind by witnessing 1st hand. No videotapes or audiotapes or eyewitness accounts (although witnesses are a plus). Fair enough.

Thanks for the specifics but let's hope nobody has to die, eat a bullet demolish their car or have all of there bones broken. Here's to hoping for a less violent miracle. hehe

exton
Forum Elder

Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 4218

Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:58 am Post subject: Re: A question to Atheists

Vinces wrote:

What would it take to convince you to change you mind?
I'm just curious.
What kind of evidence do you require?

To prove the existence of a god?

A physical conversation with said god, most likely; a conversation in my head would be insufficient, as it could just be imaginary or hallucinatory in nature.

The idea of a "god" is a very specific instance of the supernatural, and is fraught with problems; i'd have a number of questions that require good answers before i would conclude that some thing is a god, as opposed to a hallucination, or an alien, or something else.

Quote:

There is obviously no right or wrong answer.
Would experiencing a "miracle" be enough

That depends - what's a "miracle"? Does said miracle repeat under predictable circumstances?

The simplest answer is that I'd have to investigate the matter before concluding that "god did it", and it would take a set of circumstances that i find hard to imagine for that to happen.

Quote:

would hearing the audible voice of God do it?

That depends. Would it be a conversation, or just a one-time statement? If it's a one-time statement, then i could never confirm that it really happened, and so i certainly couldn't jump to the extroadinary conclusion that it was god.

And Is it the physically audible voice of god? That is, is it the result of vibrations in the air, rather than something i'm hearing in my mind?

If it's physically audible, i'd have to study the sound and its source (if any) before being able to tell you.

If not, then the most reasonable assumption would be that i was hallucinating.

Quote:

How about if a visitor from another planet with greater technology told you so?

Only if he could prove it, same as with anyone else; I don't take extroadinary claims on the basis of authority. And that just brings us back to your original question.

Quote:

Maybe nothing could change your mind?

It would be very difficult, that's for sure.

The problem isn't just with the idea of god; it's with the idea of the supernatural in general, and with the unreliability of subjective experience.

The supernatural is, itself, a nonsensical concept. It's fundamentally unsound, because when you take it to its logical conclusion, the supernatural isn't substantively different from something that exists exclusively in the human imagination.

Subjective experience can't be trusted on its own, particularly for extroadinary experiences, and for obvious reasons.

Jeff_S
Newbie

Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 1

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject:

How about a world where war is not necessary,
How about a visible vist from the big man himself.
How about peace in the middle east.
How about having everyone allowed to believe what they want, God, no God, being allowed to practice any religion or none.

J

JLV
Site Admin

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 105

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject:

Jeff_S wrote:

Agreed Jeff,

Also, welcome to LVC. Good to see that you came on here and joined. See ya around.

Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:29 am Post subject: Re: A question to Atheists

exton wrote:

Vinces wrote:

What would it take to convince you to change you mind?
I'm just curious.
What kind of evidence do you require?

Quote:

There is obviously no right or wrong answer.
Would experiencing a "miracle" be enough

Quote:

would hearing the audible voice of God do it?

Quote:

How about if a visitor from another planet with greater technology told you so?

Only if he could prove it, same as with anyone else; I don't take extroadinary claims on the basis of authority. And that just brings us back to your original question.

Quote:

Maybe nothing could change your mind?

yeah, well thinking that we just appeared out of nowhere kinda boggles my mind...and that dinner you had the other night, did it just make itself? or did someone make it?

teflon
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:39 am Post subject: A question to Atheists

Jeff_S wrote:

A world without war is a question to ask man not his maker,
Visits in what way?
peace is a choice, man is born with choice.
As far as everyone believing what they want, they do, they can choose what they believe but there is law and codes of conduct for a reason.

teflon

Makeroni
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:55 pm Post subject:

What's certainly not sufficient is masses of people who claim that they feel "him" inside or have seen "him" doing things (like the wind in a tree, just when Schizophreniac was thinking of Jeebus) or old scriptures, even if they weren't contradicting themselves in every next chapter.

Threat of Hell also not sufficient - any religion could use that (and several do), so which one would save you and which one would be the wrong guess?

Everyone around you being religion X so you would also join religion X, because it is obviously the one true religion...

yawn

/rant

Portland
Newbie

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 15

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:05 am Post subject:

Makeroni I think this was topic was about what would it take to change your mind not lets rant about Christianity.

Now Jeff_S the things you asked for are quite reasonable.

War is a tricky thing because it is a human invention and I have even heard of it being called diplomacy through other means.

As for a visit from God it really depends on which religion your talk about at this point. Some claim to feel him, other see him, and still some say he has already been. Or do you mean in your living room to have a 1 on 1 with you?

The middle east with peace. That sounds really nice but I would all add peace at home as well. Because as long as people have pride that can be bruised I doubt we can say peace will come.

The last I agree with almost completely because there is a limit in a few terms. Other then that nothing. Because I don't believe it is my right to tell you what to believe but I do believe it is my right to talk about what I believe even if you don't agree with it. =P

Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:50 pm Post subject:

Clarke's 3rd law says:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

And it makes a lot of sense.

The problem with God/religion is that they pose themselve as absolutes. As in, nothing is higher than them, nothing is truer than them. This is a level of supremeness that "sufficiently advanced technology" could never reach - a level that (as far as we can tell) magical miracles could never reach.

Therefore, as a rational thinker, I doubt any experiences would logically convince me of God/religion's authenticity. However, as a human being, sufficient magic might convince me in a non-logical manner. Perhaps the sense of wonder would suppress my rational faculties. But if that's the case, then I'd be no different from when ancient people feared and respected the powers of lightning and thunder, and treating them as the wrath of some God.

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